(Intro Music)
Welcome to Keeping it Candid – Wedding Photography Unfiltered for photographers who want to keep it real. I’m your host, Sandra Henderson, international wedding and family photographer and educator with a Marie Kondo-style approach to running a business – you know, keeping things simple and getting rid of anything that doesn’t bring you joy!
More importantly, I’m a strong enneagram 3w2 who is obsessed with tacos, and my love for travelling plus navigating chronic illness life are just two of the many things that drive my passion for all things systems, workflows, and beating burnout as a business owner.
Join me twice a month for a candid, behind-the-scenes look at what it’s really like working as a wedding photographer – where I’ll give you actionable steps to take your business to the next level. Absolutely no fluff here, friends! So grab your favourite notebook and pen, and let’s dive into this week’s episode.
Sandra Henderson 0:56
Hey friends, and welcome back to our second last episode of the year!
Sandra Henderson 1:00
Today I am joined by Julie Painter Fried also known as Dallas Girl Friday. Julie is a Client Experience Architect and Operations Manager helping wedding pros organize and streamline their systems so they can continue to thrive doing what they love the most. She worked as a wedding planner for 10 years before transitioning into this role, and it gives her a unique perspective at what it takes to run a business in the wedding industry.
Sandra Henderson 1:22
During our chat we talked all about the importance of having standard operating procedures, the long term impacts of getting your systems in order and how to know when it’s time to hire a VA. Plus, Julie shared some amazing takeaways that you could literally start applying to your business today. Are you guys ready to dive in?
Adventures Behind The Lens
A limited email series where I’m spilling all the tea from the ups and downs I’ve experienced during my time in the wedding photography industry. Click here to join!
Sandra Henderson 1:40
Thank you so much for joining me Julie. I’m so excited for our chat today. Before we get started, why don’t you take a quick second if you don’t mind and just introduce yourself and let everybody know a little bit about you.
Julie Painter Fried 1:51
Hey, y’all, I’m Julie. I’m the girl Friday behind Dallas Girl Friday. And I am a client experience architect and Operations Manager for wedding professionals. I was a wedding planner for a decade. And then I shifted over into doing VA work and then I niched down to only working with wedding pros, because that’s who I liked, and it’s what I knew. And now I work exclusively with wedding pros. I love it. I love love, love it. And that could be anyone from planner to venue to band, hair and makeup artists, photographers, all of the things. If you are wedding related I’m your girl. For systems, not for I don’t know, Cat Training. I love systems they are, they are my love language. And right now I work with clients on like, a retainer basis as their COO, and I do systems audits and systems overhauls. And I am going to be hiring some people soon to be like, associate VAs for my, my company. Um, and so I’ll be able to take on more people because sometimes I know I have like people come to me and they’re like, Oh, but I only need this and this. And I’m like, Oh, I’m not the person for you. But I want to be. So I’m very excited about that direction.
Sandra Henderson 3:22
Yeah, that’ll be amazing. I’m excited to see how that goes for you.
Julie Painter Fried 3:27
The hope is to be hiring it by January.
Sandra Henderson 3:33
Right on! What a good way to start the new year. So as a systems expert, what state of mind do you find that most of your clients in the wedding industry are kind of res- like, residing in, when they first come to you for help with their systems?
Julie Painter Fried 3:49
Oh, they’re drowning. They’re underwater with like one slight fingernail sticking out. And that’s something I really attempt to educate and encourage people on is to hire before you’re ready. Because a VA or you know, systems, you know, me doing systems overhauls and audits, yeah, that’s different. But if you’re wanting to work with someone long term and just bring someone on to outsource a few things, maybe you’re blogging or culling images or managing your inbox and things like that. I just really try to encourage people to hire before they’re ready. Because if you are already missing deadlines, constantly bringing a new completely new person into your business won’t rescue you. They need time to learn your business and the weddings that are currently on the books along with your processes. So especially because weddings are a cyclical industry, I do say you know try to set yourself up for success by hiring during offseason, you know. Try not to bring someone on in the middle of October, I think that’s kind of just a universally busy month, no matter what part of the country you’re in. So you know, bring them in during your quote/unquote offseason, your slower season, and let someone learn your process and adjust to how you work. Because hiring in a rush usually means that the wrong person gets hired. And you’re, you’re more likely to overlook red flags if you’re panic hiring.
Sandra Henderson 5:28
Yeah, that’s so true or not having the time available that you need… Speaking of someone who needs Cat Training, she is looking for all kinds of attention. But when you’re in that –
Julie Painter Fried 5:38
You’ve got a mascot, I love it.
Sandra Henderson 5:41
Yeah haha. When you’re in that headspace, and you’re trying to bring someone on when you’re so overwhelmed, and you have all this work to do, and it’s your peak busy season, there is a portion of the work that you have to do to be able to have, like, bring that person on to help you. And so if you don’t have the capacity to do that, it’s so easy, I found in my own experience, for little things to get missed. And then it’s sort of like, the whole experience leaves a bad taste in your mouth. And I had to get myself out of the thought process of it wasn’t the outsourcing or the helping that was the issue, it was that I didn’t have any of the systems or processes needed in place to be able to bring someone on.
Julie Painter Fried 6:18
Oh my gosh, completely. I know that, because I’ve been doing, you know, in some different capacity, VA work now for almost eight years. And so I know that I have at times been that person that somebody has left working with me being like, Well, that was a terrible experience, because she didn’t know what she was doing. She didn’t know I was like, okay, but you gave me one month, and I didn’t come in with any SOPs. And I didn’t know how to do this. So I like to attempt to try to tell people like, Here are some ways you can effectively work with a VA and, you know, things like that. And like, yeah, there’s going to be some duds out there. Of course there are. But a lot of times it is just because things maybe aren’t set up in your business.
Julie Painter Fried 7:04
And so anyone listening right now, if you do not have SOPs in your business, which SOP is a standard operating procedure. It’s like a document that outlines the necessary steps to perform specific tasks for your business. So the aim with SOPs is to streamline your processes so that they’re clear, they’re concise, and this really will allow you to deliver like consistent and predictable results. To put it simply, think of them as like how to guides and checklists for all your recurring procedures and processes. So if you are listening to this, please go complete one SOP today, even if it’s this is how I change out a graphic in Canva. Or this is how I outline a blog post, you know, complete from click New Post in WordPress to like this is what I enter for SEO, you know, all of those kinds of things. It’s really good for all of that stuff just to be outlined, because I mean, you still can’t just hand those documents to someone and expect them to know what you, everything that’s going on in your business. There’s still a learning curve, still a training, but that will certainly set you up for success.
Sandra Henderson 8:24
Oh, absolutely. That was a quarantine project that I had over 2020 times when I wasn’t able to work was just to kind of like sit down and think about all the ways that I actually do things. And it’s been so helpful. I haven’t thankfully *knock on wood* had to like fully hand off things, but as someone navigating a chronic illness, there’s times that I’m just not able to be at my computer or doing things and so having those standard operating procedures even just kind of takes the the forethought away from my mind. Like if I can just easily refer to something I don’t have to think about it or having all these things on my mind all the time.
Julie Painter Fried 9:02
I completely get that from all angles because I have chronic illness too. I have chronic migraines have suffered from them my whole life.
Sandra Henderson 9:14
Same here!
Julie Painter Fried 9:15
You know, I do Botox in my skull and like it’s I do all the things. But I mean, there’s still taste when I am just knocked on my behind. And if I didn’t have processes in place, if I didn’t have things outlined that, that I could do, like I just my business would collapse. And I feel like you can’t save it if you’re already drowning. So why don’t you set yourself up for the best possible scenario because I mean, cars get into accidents. Babies come early. It could be something joyful, like you’re going on a honeymoon. Like there are going to be times when you do not want to be in your business and systems make it so that you don’t have to be all the time.
Sandra Henderson 10:03
Yes, I love that that’s such a good way to put it. So going off of that, what sort of impact kind of like short term and long term Do you see? Either in your own business or for the clients that you’re helping when you’re building out systems with them? What kind of impact are you seeing happen in their businesses, once things do start getting organized and more streamlined?
Julie Painter Fried 10:24
Oh, my gosh. So I will say short term, a thing a lot of people come to me with is and I love that you started working on your SOPs, like during that, you know, quote, unquote, COVID downtime, because a lot of people did. And that’s great. And a lot of people came to me and some people, you know, walked me through their stuff. And I set up their SOPs and outline for them, that is something I provide. But people, you will feel like, at first, it’s taking too long. I mean, because you have to write out every single thing. And that feels daunting. If it feels you know, the writer staring at the blank page feels daunting, what comes next? You’re gonna wish you could have it done in a snap, but I mean, long term, there is truly not a value that can be placed on it. I mean, having great systems in your business, not- it can mean exorbitantly more money. Who doesn’t want more money? More time with your family? A lot of people you know, in the wedding industry are you know, I won’t generalize it and say it’s just women, because it’s certainly not, but there are a lot of, you know, moms with young kids and things like that. And they want to have time to go be room mom and go volunteer at their kids school and be home, like after school for snack time. And all those things and systems can give you that time back. I mean, money can barely even buy you time, but systems can do it. More time to travel or pursue your outside interests, if you know, weddings, and the creative industry isn’t your only interest. So I mean, I truly, I can’t put a value on what it can do for you in the long term to be streamlined.
Sandra Henderson 12:18
Oh, absolutely. I think you said it perfectly. And it also gives you the ability to take that time, guilt free, you don’t have to worry and have like the weight of all the things that you quote unquote, should be doing or need to be doing. Because the systems and processes are in place that they more often than not, are running well and efficiently without you.
Julie Painter Fried 12:40
Yeah, absolutely.
Sandra Henderson 12:43
So what would you say if you could pick one reason why a wedding professional should get their systems in order? Do you think that you could pick just one?
Julie Painter Fried 12:53
Yes.
Sandra Henderson 12:54
What would that be?
Julie Painter Fried 12:56
Well, I mean, it’s one in that it’s a phrase, it encompasses a lot of things, but your client experience because we are in the business of hopefully only doing things once. You know, we’re- I mean, obviously, you know, divorce has happened and things happen and people do get married multiple times. But the, you know, hope when we send all those couples down the aisle is like, this is your forever person. One and done, I hope that I don’t see you again, kind of thing. But it’s also an issue where they’ve waited, you know, let’s say, you know, the average, couples getting married at age like 30ish. You know, that’s not their whole life, of course, but they’ve waited their whole life to find this person to have this day, that is still a huge thing for a lot of people. And so, I mean, they’re going to do it the one time, they want it to be perfect. If it’s not… We are not, let’s say AT&T. Like, for me, I have been with AT&T for 10 years. And granted, there have been times where they have messed up or service has gone out or they have sent me the wrong replacement product and things and okay, here’s a $15 credit on your bill. Okay, that was nice. But overall, like, does AT&T have five star customer service every time? No. Am I still with them? Yeah, ’cause it’s TV and let’s face it, I’m not giving up Bravo. But these people, this is their one time doing it. This is their one experience with you. And so the client experience which is, I mean, from the minute they land on your website until after their wedding when you’ve given them their deliverables, whether it’s you know, photos, videos, or just a tangible Thank you, that entire process is the client experience. And you can truly elevate that into a luxury space with systems to make every person feel like they are staying at, you know, the Ritz.
Sandra Henderson 15:21
Yeah, absolutely. And creating that just consistent client experience across the board adds to that luxury vibe as well. And I think those are the things especially speaking from a photographer’s perspective, a lot of people can take great photos. And it’s not to dismiss it, but I think that when it comes to running a successful photography business, and continuing to get your name out there and grow your business, has a lot more to do with the way that you’re running your company and the client experience that you’re providing, because there are so many people who are out there taking beautiful photos, but there’s not a lot of people out there who are delivering amazing client experiences.
Julie Painter Fried 16:01
Yeah. And I mean, you said it perfectly. It’s a photography business, you have to be running that business, too. And if that is not where your heart is that that is not where your mind is that that’s fine. Hire people who that is their strength. Hire people like me who nerd out on that stuff, like hardcore nerd out on systems. Because, yeah, you may take the best, most beautiful photographs in the world. And that’s your creative deliverable. But if you can’t email your client back in a timely manner, if you can’t outline the process of like, here’s when you’re going to schedule your engagement session here is when your photos will be delivered here is this and this and this, then you’re just making them wait around and wonder what’s coming next. They don’t know. You may have shot 100 weddings in the last two years. But they’ve only gotten married once. Probably.
Sandra Henderson 16:59
Yeah, that’s so important to remember.
Julie Painter Fried 17:01
Yeah. And it can be, you know, frustrating, I get, to feel like, oh, my gosh, these people are asking the same questions over and over and over, and it’s so annoying. Okay, then you need to beef up your onboarding packet with a list of FAQs that you know people are always asking, so you can answer this question before they even think of it.
Sandra Henderson 17:20
Exactly.
Julie Painter Fried 17:21
That is the client experience, because customer service is taking care of what went wrong. Client Experience is preventing it.
Sandra Henderson 17:28
I love the way that you phrase that that’s such a good perspective about it.
Julie Painter Fried 17:28
Thanks.
Sandra Henderson 17:29
Okay, so we’ve talked about creating those standard operating procedures and how important it is to get these systems and procedures all in place so that your business is running no matter what comes your way. Do you have any tips for someone who is just getting started? Whether they’re new in business, or they are, you know, like you were saying at the beginning, feeling like they’re drowning, and just have one fingertip sticking out of the water? Where would you say if someone was to dedicate an hour of their time today to getting started? What would be your recommendation?
Julie Painter Fried 18:07
Contact me?! No, I’m just kidding. Of course, but no, really the- I have, I would say start with one thing you think you could outsource. Whether it is, you know, a lot of people say, you know, blogging is such a time suck. Social media is such a time suck. Okay, what aspect of those things – something that you hate doing that you know you need in your business, but that your hands do not need to be touching – could you hand off? Just think of one thing. And then write that SOP down.
Sandra Henderson 18:41
Love that. That’s so good. I was thinking about that, as you were like originally talking about SOPs earlier, is that on a day where you’re not overwhelmed, you know, going into August, September for a lot of photographers and wedding professionals in general, this may not be the time but when you have a little bit more wiggle room to your schedule in a day, after you’ve done something, take five minutes and go write it down. And then eventually you’re going to be piecing together this SOP guide without having to sit there for six hours and write down every single detail.
Julie Painter Fried 19:15
Something I suggest to people too, who’re like, well, it takes too long right SOP and I don’t understand why I really need it. Or like Can’t you just do it for me? So if you don’t want to go back and forth into a Google doc – because SOPs do not need to be pretty. This is not some like gorgeous, like, Adobe Illustrator template that you’re working with. I mean, it’s just a basic Google Doc. But if this is something that is just causing you so much dread and you’re like it’s kind of taking more time. Just use a program like loom or Screencastify or something like that and just record yourself doing the thing, like and then send it to someone like me who can interpret what you have just done into an SOP for you. Um, and then you can even include the link to that Loom video as part of your SOP so people have a visual reference to what you’re doing so it’s not just a bunch of words.
Sandra Henderson 20:13
That’s such a good idea. I love that. Awesome. Well, do you have any final thoughts or anything before we wrap things up?
Julie Painter Fried 20:20
Um, I mean, I just – My biggest thing that I stress to people is that systems are not optional. I mean, they weren’t optional before COVID. And they certainly still are not optional. like stuff happens, and you have to be prepared and systems can save you time. They are your toolbox to utilize and improve every aspect of your business, in your life. Systems help you grow. And, you know, systems can literally save you. So, I mean, it’s something I’m so passionate about is systems are not optional. But you know, hop on my, hop on my website, schedule a discovery call. If you feel like maybe you need a systems audit, and you just need some eyes on it. Or if you need a systems overhaul, and you need me to come in and redo your CRM, write your canned emails, redo your processes. That’s something I offer. And then you know, come next year, you have some openings for additional VA services! can’t wait!
Julie Painter Fried 20:42
Yes. Love it. Yeah, that’s so so true about how just everything I think comes down to systems. I totally agree with you on that.
Julie Painter Fried 21:37
Everything. And it’s not a sexy topic. Like it’s not like, ooh, new Instagram, ooh, marketing. Ooh, selling. Like, it’s, it’s boring. I’m not, I’m not going to pretend it’s like glamorous. But to people like me who love it. It is glamorous. Like, I love what I do every day. And there are a lot of people, especially in this creative industry whose brains just don’t work like mine. And that’s great, because we need creatives to win the greatest. And we need… we need the visionaries, and we need the integrators on the ladder. So let, let me or someone like me, you know, come in and really just clean things up.
Sandra Henderson 22:18
Exactly. And then the people who aren’t systems focused, they can reap the glamorous benefits after when they get that freedom back.
Julie Painter Fried 22:26
And they can focus on what they actually love doing.
Sandra Henderson 22:28
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that’s so true.
Julie Painter Fried 22:31
Because if I mean, if you’re a photographer, and you hate that business-y part but you don’t take it off your plate, you are going to grow to resent your business. Every time you have to sit down to blog, every time you have to look at your numbers, every time you have to look at, you know, your back end and send emails. I mean, you’re gonna resent your business and you’re gonna burn out.
Sandra Henderson 22:50
Totally. That’s so so true. I have been there and I hope to never revisit that space ever again.
Julie Painter Fried 22:56
I yeah, I feel like most of us have, at some point for sure.
Sandra Henderson 22:59
Right? That’s a huge like goal of mine, or hope that I hope… or things that I hope people will take away from this podcast. Like the Keeping It Candid podcast as a whole, but even this specifically from this interview is just the like, the freedom that can come from taking these steps behind the scenes and that like the importance of getting ahead of it and not getting to it once you’ve burnt yourself out. I think that people who have been in the industry for a while we started our businesses with the hustle culture. And so it was very common for everybody to be burning out at the end of every year. And I hope to see a shift in that with the new generation of people coming into the wedding industry where they set those boundaries and set those systems ahead of time.
Julie Painter Fried 23:44
I hope so. Because burning out is not a badge of honor.
Sandra Henderson 23:48
No, not even a little bit. All right. Well, thank you so much again, before we end the call, I would love to just have you let everybody know where they can find you online and on social media.
Julie Painter Fried 24:00
Yes, you can find me at dallasgirlfriday.com. And then on social media, the only thing I do is Instagram, qnd if you want systems tips or hot takes on The Bachelor and book reviews and just me being a stone cold weirdo. Please come hang out with me on Instagram at @dallasgirlfriday.
Sandra Henderson 24:25
I love that. That was the best description. I love a stone cold weirdo!
Julie Painter Fried 24:30
I you know I learned a long time ago that that I’m not everyone’s cup of tea and that is completely fine. And I don’t want to be
Sandra Henderson 24:40
right. Exactly. Life is too short to take it all seriously.
Julie Painter Fried 24:45
If people come to my Instagram and they like what they’re seeing, they know that’s what they’re gonna get when they work with me. And if you don’t like what you’re seeing, happy to recommend someone else.
Sandra Henderson 24:56
There’s lots of people on this world, the world takes all kinds, and so we can easily just bring in those people that fit our vibe and everyone else can go find their vibe. It’s totally fine.
Julie Painter Fried 25:05
100% Yeah.
Sandra Henderson 25:08
Awesome. Well, thank you so much again, Julie, this was great. And I cannot wait to connect with you again down the road.
Sandra Henderson 25:15
Okay, you guys know that I am obsessed with systems so it’s probably no surprise to you that I absolutely loved this conversation with Julie. Whether you’re building them out yourself or hiring someone to do it for you, systems are truly a non-negotiable when it comes to a successful, thriving business.
Sandra Henderson 25:31
And I remember years ago, I was talking to one of my old college professors about how I planned on learning how to do my taxes myself. My mom had always done them for me up until that point, that’s one of the perks of having a mom who’s bookkeeper! But mixing business and family can get stressful, let’s be honest, so I wanted to make a change. I also felt like it was like the quote/unquote “adult” thing to do.
And when I told my prof this, I will literally never forget his response. He said, ‘You know how people say they’re going to just get their uncle with a nice camera to take their wedding photos. Like, sure, you can absolutely do that. But should you? probably not. And the same goes for your taxes. Just because you can do them yourself doesn’t mean that you should do them yourself.
And that lesson has really stuck with me through so many different aspects of running a business. As entrepreneurs, we’re used to wearing all the hats. We’re emotionally invested in every aspect of our businesses. And it’s hard to let go of any of the things that we’ve worked so hard to build, we get lost in the thought of if I want it done right, I have to do it myself.
But here’s the thing, we can only excel in so many different things right? It’s impossible for us to do every single thing at an expert level. If every person and every business in the world could excel at their own finances and taxes, we would have no need for accountants. If every person in the world could take technically perfect photos and capture the best emotions with their cell phones and personal cameras, we would have no need for photographers. And if everyone could prepare the most unbelievable meals from scratch with no effort, we would probably spend a lot less time at restaurants.
But we live in a world full of people who are experts in their field and it’s a smart business decision, not a lazy or irresponsible one, to outsource different aspects of your work and work with other professionals who excel in the areas outside of your own expertise.
I hope this episode has inspired you to take some of the hats off that you wear every day. Whether you start by writing out one standard operating procedure like Julie’s suggested, or if you’re ready to take the leap to hiring a VA or working with a systems expert. You deserve to take some of the things off your plate.
Now before I go – Have I ever told you about how I found out my foot was broken while I was shooting a wedding?! If you want to hear the story join me for an Adventure Behind the Lens, a limited email series where I’m spilling the tea about all the ups and downs I’ve been through over the last 12 years in the wedding industry.
Head to simplysandrayvonne.ca/adventures to join!
(Outro Music)
Thanks so much for listening to Keeping It Candid: Wedding Photography Unfiltered with Sandra Henderson! You can find full show notes from today’s episode at simplysandrayvonne.ca/keepingitcandid. In the meantime – let’s connect! You can find me on Instagram @simplysandrayvonne, and on Facebook in the Wedding Photography Unfiltered community! If you’re loving this podcast, I’d be so honoured if you’d go ahead and hit that subscribe button and leave me a review!
Until next time!
Julie Painter Fried from Dallas Girl Friday
Website | www.dallasgirlfriday.com
IG | @dallasgirlfriday
About Julie
Julie is a Dallas native who planned weddings for a decade before transitioning into working with wedding pros to transform their systems and client experience. Julie is a newlywed, a lover of reality tv, and you can find her on Instagram reviewing books and chatting systems.
(Intro Music)
Welcome to Keeping it Candid – Wedding Photography Unfiltered for photographers who want to keep it real. I’m your host, Sandra Henderson, international wedding and family photographer and educator with a Marie Kondo-style approach to running a business – you know, keeping things simple and getting rid of anything that doesn’t bring you joy!
More importantly, I’m a strong enneagram 3w2 who is obsessed with tacos, and my love for travelling plus navigating chronic illness life are just two of the many things that drive my passion for all things systems, workflows, and beating burnout as a business owner.
Join me twice a month for a candid, behind-the-scenes look at what it’s really like working as a wedding photographer – where I’ll give you actionable steps to take your business to the next level. Absolutely no fluff here, friends! So grab your favourite notebook and pen, and let’s dive into this week’s episode.
Sandra Henderson 00:56
Welcome Friends! We are back for day two of the local vendor series. If you’re tuning in for the first time and aren’t sure what this series is all about – let me give you a quick little summary. I connected with different vendors local to the London, Ontario area that I’ve had a chance to work with over the last few years, and we talked about things like why it’s so important to create that dream team vibe of vendors on a wedding day, how we can support and serve one another and some of the dos and don’ts that we’ve come across during our time in the industry. I hope that by starting these conversations, we can finally be done with the idea that other vendors are out to get us with negative intentions and ulterior motives on a wedding day and hopefully start creating a stronger community of people who are ready to support one another and show up to serve their couples in the best way possible. Today I’m joined by my friend Ally, who is the owner and lead wedding planner at Perfectly Designed Events. She specializes in full-service wedding and event planning to allow her clients to have the most seamless experience possible. And in the short time that I’ve known Ally, we’ve had the chance to work together a few times and I can tell you firsthand that she is amazing at what she does. Her passion for serving her clients and the vendors on a wedding day shows in every aspect, so I knew that she would be a perfect fit for this episode.
Sandra Henderson 02:09
For some context, these interviews were recorded a while ago, like back when I first launched the podcast earlier this year! I actually plan on only doing one episode on this topic, but after I started having conversations with different vendors, I realized that it was just too good to condense down into one single episode. And so, The Local Vendor Series was born! At the beginning of Ally’s interview, we chat a bit about the podcast just launching. So I thought I would clear up any confusion before we get started.
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Sandra Henderson 02:38
Thank you for being my very first interview for the podcast. I’m so excited!
Ally Lightfoot-Atkinson 02:43
Oh my gosh, I’m so excited! I didn’t know I was the first!
Sandra Henderson 02:47
Yes, you’re my very first! I have a few others lined up for this episode and a couple others, but you are the first one. So thank you so much for being here!
Ally Lightfoot-Atkinson 02:55
Oh, my goodness. Well, thank you so much for reaching out to me. I’m looking forward to chatting with you. And congratulations on the podcast.
Sandra Henderson 03:01
Thank you! All right. So why don’t you tell me a little bit about yourself to get started?
Ally Lightfoot-Atkinson 03:07
Oh, absolutely. So my name is Ally. I specialize in full-service wedding and event planning in all of southwestern Ontario. So, I started planning events back in 2012. I lived in Edmonton, Alberta, and I started working for a kind of like a restaurant lounge that had a private loft space. So I started there as a host, and I kind of worked my way into an event coordination position. I absolutely loved it. So we did like a lot of book signings, we did Christmas parties, business dinners. It was a capacity of about 50, seated to 100 standing. So it was a lot of those more smaller business-related events. But I loved it. And then there was one time when we did one wedding, and it was fabulous. So I moved to London in kind of late 2013. And then I searched for a similar job and found out the hard way that that doesn’t really exist here. So I decided to get certified through the Wedding Planners Institute of Canada and I became a wedding planner technically in 2014. And I started I worked for a local day of coordinator in the area from 2014 until 2017. And then I decided to kind of branch out on my own and focus on full-service planning from start to finish. I really wanted to be a part of everybody’s you know, wedding day or event day, through the entire process and all of the booking, all the little details through the whole day. So I’ve been doing this now since kind of the end of the season of 2017.
Sandra Henderson 04:51
Oh, that’s awesome. That’s so cool that you got to do book signings and things like that that must have been so different from planning a wedding!
Ally Lightfoot-Atkinson 04:58
It really was honestly it was so different. And I actually I have this one book from a book signing that I remember so specifically, but all of the events that we did kind of back then, I suppose, 10 years ago now, they were so, so different. And every day was different. Weddings are different, too. But you know, they kind of tend to follow the same, the same structure. And I do I like that. And I, I thrive in the consistency, but also making it, you know, the personalized day that everyone’s looking for. But yeah, I really enjoyed those. We did like, Super Bowl parties. We did a, like, I can’t remember if it was the Bachelor or the Bachelorette. But we had like a viewing night in the loft. And we turned all the TVs on. We had red roses, we made a kind of very bachelor themed and so many, so many different types of events. It was a lot of fun.
Sandra Henderson 05:49
So do you ever- you were saying about 10 years now. Do you ever feel like it’s weird to think that you’ve been able to be doing something that you can look back on it that long? Like sometimes I don’t feel like I’m old enough to have been in business for nine years.
Ally Lightfoot-Atkinson 06:02
Right? I know, that’s actually something I think about often. When people look at me, so I’m 28. And I started this when I was 18 years old. And people look at me and they think like, Oh, you must, must have just started. And I’m like no, I’m, I’m somehow 10 years into this. And yes, I started when I was 18 basically kind of Straight Outta straight out of high school and I fell in love with, I fell in love with it.
Sandra Henderson 06:29
That’s so awesome. I love that. So over the last 10 years, what has your experience looked like working with wedding photographers?
Ally Lightfoot-Atkinson 06:38
I would say pretty much entirely positive that the wedding industry as a whole in London and area, and Southwestern Ontario in general. I find everyone to be, for the most part, very accepting and, and helpful. And I’ve had a really good experience overall, I do tend to get along really well with people who are also in the creative industry and like the creative side of weddings. So I tend to you know, I tend to really enjoy working with the photographers who have crossed paths with they found, you know, pretty much everyone to be really interested in collaborating and working together. Again, I know we’ve talked about it before, Sandra, but for kind of the common, the common goal of having a couple have the best day possible.
Sandra Henderson 07:23
Yeah, absolutely. Which is the takeaway that I hope everybody gets from this episode. Do you have any situations you’ve come across where it was like, please do this if you’re a wedding photographer, or please absolutely do not ever do this again, to me as a wedding planner?!
Ally Lightfoot-Atkinson 07:41
Oh, that’s a tricky one. I mean, I would say that the biggest thing that we occasionally come across is just remembering to treat everybody with respect. And I think that goes for kind of every category of wedding professionals and guests and couples and everyone as well. We’re all humans. And again, we’re all just looking to make this couple’s wedding day, the absolute perfect day, you know, so for me, I’ve spent years and hundreds of hours working on every kind of like little tiny detail and 99 points percent of the time all of the other vendors are have also put in a ton of work and they’ve really invested into this day, we’re all trying to kind of get there there is that, you know, hand a handful of times where there’s event vendors, sometimes photographers, sometimes someone else who they’re, what’s the best way to say it, they sometimes I think maybe the appreciation of the amount of work that others are putting into it as well, isn’t always there. We always know how much we’re putting in, right? And as a planner, I typically know how much everyone else is putting into it because I’m a part of that. But not everyone else, kind of you know, there’s makeup artists don’t often chat with the florists and I mean, of course, they do have some relationships and but it’s just not on a regular kind of standard wedding day, you, unfortunately, not all vendors get to interact in that kind of way to really understand, like, how much work has gone into it. So honestly, I mean, treating people with respect and I think it all goes back to the Dream Team and, and being able to kind of like work together to make sure that we’re making the best day for our couples but yeah, treating, treating everybody with respect is key. And I think one of the things that if I were to say like there was a please don’t, it would probably just come it would stem from that point of treating everyone with respect as planners and I’ve talked to many other, many other planners, I’ve got great relationships with the other planners in the province. And I know that we all deal with this to a certain extent but our largest challenge is negativity and frustration coming from other vendors because not everybody is realizing how much we’re balancing to try to make this day happen. You know someone requests X amount of time for hair and makeup and two hours for couple portraits, but then also the caterer needs this amount of time and, but the venue doesn’t have staff until this time, and they have to close it this time. But if we’re too early, then we can’t get a bus for our guests, there’s so much to balance. And that’s, that’s the biggest challenge as a wedding planner is knowing that you can’t please everyone. And honestly, you really can’t ever please anyone. Because you need to, as a, as a professional, it’s, you have to try to bring all this together and kind of make everybody compromise for the sake of the couple and kind of getting everything coming together. But then you’re also the bearer of bad news at all times. So I’m kind of the bearer of bad news to photographers and florists and the couple as well and their families trying to explain what’s possible and what’s not and why And I mean, the pl- I suppose I would love for people to kind of really get a good understanding of why, why we do the things that we do. And same thing when it’s the couples who are working without a planner, understanding why they’re doing those things, too, and why they may not be able to give the amount of timing that’s required, or the exact layout that is preferred, or the seating or all of those kinds of logistics, you’re balancing 20 to 30, different vendors preferences, and you know, contracts and the frustration, I totally understand where it comes from. But it’s, I mean, I think just having the respect for the people who are planning those as well and the couples to again, when there’s no planner, it’s so important.
Sandra Henderson 11:34
That’s all so so true. I think it’s so important to just, for all wedding vendors across the board to realize nobody has any sort of negative intentions of the wedding day. No one is looking to screw another person over because we all have to work together. And so if, for, just for example, if you as the planner, were intentionally making it so that the photographer had less time, and you know, that was just like your priority, it was like, No, you can get it done, sorry about what your needs are, then your clients would not be happy with the vendor that you recommended for them. So like, it just doesn’t make sense to come into it thinking that you have no flexibility because, you know, this other person is just out to get you like, it’s definitely it’s such a huge puzzle with so many pieces like you were saying.
Ally Lightfoot-Atkinson 12:25
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s so true. And I think it’s always just kind of taking that step back. And, you know, understanding why everyone wants what they’re asking for. And, you know, timing is I think probably the biggest challenge. Unfortunately, there’s just not enough hours in the day. And I have to, I’m trying to balance my clients’ wishes, you know, they don’t want to start before 8am. Well, that might not be awesome, because we need six hours plus for hair and makeup. But then we also need that time for capturing getting ready. And we need the detail time, then we need time for the first look and the ceremony, there’s just not enough hours in the day for everybody to be able to kind of get what they want. So I find so much of it is just kind of balancing, you know, the couple’s expectations, and then, you know, really trying to get to the bottom of which vendors need what and what we could kind of, you know how we could compromise to try to make it work for everyone, you know, can we add another stylist? Can we add a second shooter? Can we, you know, what can we do to try and make all of it, all of it work so that everyone is getting what they need? Because again, like you said, it’s all just to try to make this day the most perfect day for this couple. And I think that’s why the majority of us in the wedding industry have come here, like, we just we want to help people, we want to serve people and we want to see them happy on one of this, you know, these, this kind of greatest day of their lives.
Sandra Henderson 13:47
I love all of that. And it’s so so true. So let me jump into the next question that I have. When it comes to wedding photographers showing up on the wedding day, we often get a lot of requests from other vendors that we have great relationships with and things like that to be able to provide photos. I think that’s a huge, huge conversation that I’m planning on saving for a later episode. But basically, I want to know, when it comes to a wedding planner… unless like, as I’ve learned more about what a wedding planner does, I know that you put so much work into like the design of the tablescapes and things like that. But even if you’re working with a decorator, a lot of times a wedding planner is creatively having so much input in how the design of the day turns out, which I don’t think- I know I just learned that recently. And so I think that there’s probably a lot of vendors who don’t realize that as well. But outside of the like, decor side of the day, there’s a lot of parts of what your job is that are not able to necessarily be photographically represented. So I wanted to know how photographers can show up in a creative and photographic way to represent what you do and serve you as a wedding planner?
Ally Lightfoot-Atkinson 15:04
Absolutely. That’s a great question. I do think that that’s actually one of the reasons why wedding planners and decorators get confused So often. I have inquiries, probably twice a week, asking for me to do decor and I explained that I actually partner with a ton of great decorators in the area and a lot of my weddings, they have decorators, too. That’s not necessarily me. But what is normally me, is that initial vision. So typically, what I do with my clients, is we work through a design process together. And that’s before we hire a decorator, a florist, or rentals. That’s before all of that. So typically, what we would do is once we start to kind of get our other vendors in place – photography, video, catering, hair, makeup, all of those elements that aren’t necessarily directly related to the design of the day, then we’ll do a venue tour, we’ll go through everything that they’re looking for – kind of the theme, the style, any ideas that they have. And then I’ll put together a design plan. And that will include elements from rental companies, it will include elements from decorators, it will include elements for florists, I typically work with like four to five different rental companies and or decorators for each wedding. And I think that’s something that is, is really not realized at all by kind of those who are outside of this world of wedding – of being a wedding planner.
Ally Lightfoot-Atkinson 16:25
But yeah, so I mean, I think that one of the biggest things is, we put so much energy in so much time and effort into the smallest details. It’s, It’s so true, like beyond, like we were talking already about timing, beyond that, when we kind of move into the design portion of the day, that’s the only place where a wedding planners work can really be captured. The rest of our work is kind of the whole wedding together. But the only place where you can really ever see it in a photo is through the design. And one of the things that that I find is a lot of photographers, they do understand that and they, they want to get those, they want to get those photos, they, you know, they asked me what I’m looking for. And honestly, for the most part, I’m not ever looking for anything super specific. Sometimes they have a vision of maybe the couple on the dance floor with the whole room in the background. But for the most part, it’s you know, just capture it capture the day as it is, and, but get those detail photos. And I find that those get forgotten often are kind of looked over. And I don’t know if everyone kind of actually realizes how much it matters to the clients as well.
Ally Lightfoot-Atkinson 17:34
But you know, to give kind of a quick example, I’ve got an event coming up in May. And we have spent hundreds of dollars, hours, and probably three meetings talking about cocktail napkins. So what seems so small to kind of the outside eye like, to the guests are going to come they’re gonna see some cocktail napkins, it’s going to have their name on it, they’re gonna think, wow, those are really fun. But they don’t realize how much we went through to get there. The samples that we looked at, the multiple companies we talked to, looking at the, you know, font colors, purchasing the font we’re going to use, designing it, all of those little things for this one, well, hundreds, but one tiny little cocktail napkin. And so I find that when it comes down to it, my clients, they do want to see that reflected in their images at the end of the day. For myself, that’s totally something I’d love to see as well. I mean, if I’m, if the photographer is willing to share the gallery with me, those are things I love to see, because those cocktail napkins, they’ve got a great story behind them. Like 20-plus hours of work for this one little thing. But yeah, I think just capturing all of the day is how photographers can best kind of serve planners and represent our work. And again, visually, unfortunately, there really, the only thing we can show for it is all of those little details but we put so much energy and so much effort into you know, getting washroom trailers booked and finding all of the best vendors, and we talked to 40 different photographers meet with seven of them before our clients pick the best one, and kind of all of those little, all of those little details but none of that is, unfortunately, able to really be represented in the physical work that we can see after. so I do find that that’s possibly why some planners and some decorators and other vendors are really wanting to see like, specific elements of the decor, and I know that some photographers, some photographers who I’ve worked with they see that you know they see the need for the detail photos, but things like those napkins would absolutely be overlooked. They, you know, they take a few – and I’ve definitely gotten some galleries back before where there’s three detail photos and, you know, at the end of the day, it is what it is but I would love for people to know also that the couples want that as well. And they may not know it at the beginning, or they may not know it when they kind of first book you and you have that conversation about what they want to see in their gallery. But once they go through it all, and you know, this client, for example, who’s had to talk to me about cocktail napkins for six months, I know that when she flips through her gallery and sees a quick snap of those cocktail napkins, she’s gonna have a little giggle, and it’s just all of those memories, and all of the little things that kind of bring everything together.
Sandra Henderson 20:20
Absolutely. That’s such a great point about like, the memories leading up to the wedding day, I think like as someone who for the most part, planned my own wedding and worked with a day of coordinator, all of that, like all of what I remember is all the negative, like the stress and everything that went wrong, but when you have the little, the photos that will remind you of the, you know, the fun parts of the planning process – that’s so important, and something that you definitely don’t really think about in advance. And I think it really speaks to what you were saying before as well about just kind of like respecting that everybody had put so much work into it and unless you’re in the industry, yourself, you don’t necessarily know everything that’s going into it. So yeah, I think that’s a great way that photographers can show up and start, you know, not to say start being a part of the dream team, but like, just be a part of the dream team. Because, you know, we have so many people, it definitely is going to take effort from everybody. But speaking of the dream teams, what impact would you say it has for you and your clients and their overall experience when they do have a dream team of vendors that have worked together before and, you know, have a really great relationship outside of the wedding day as well?
Ally Lightfoot-Atkinson 21:32
Oh, my goodness, it feels amazing! It’s it, it leads honestly, to truly a flawless day. Because when you’ve worked together, and when you, you know, when you’re comfortable with each other, and you know each other and you know, I know how you’re going to act, you know how I’m going to act in any kind of issues that arise, because there will always be an issue, we’re able to easily and efficiently solve those problems. So on my end, it makes my day, so much smoother, I can focus a little bit more on the guests, I can focus more on the couple, I can focus more on the smaller details instead of trying to, you know, understand what everyone else is thinking and making sure that they have what they need. Because I know what, you know, I know what you need. So it’s honestly for myself, it’s so important. And it’s amazing to have that dream team come together and have everyone, again, respect each other’s work and what everyone has put into the day.
Ally Lightfoot-Atkinson 22:30
And then for the couple and for the family. Again, it just leads to a flawless day when you have the best, the best team around you, and a team that is excited to work together and they’re positive and they’re happy. It’s, It’s everybody’s favorite day, the vendors are having a great time, the guests are having a great time. And they can see that, you know, like the photographers happy, the planners happy, like everyone looks calm, everyone’s working together. And that’s how I feel that it should be for everybody, just again, like, you know, respecting each other and working together and compromising and just kind of making the day the best day that it can be for the couple.
Sandra Henderson 23:10
I love that so much. I love all of your answers. We’re just on such like, the same mindset when it comes to how wedding day, like I hate using the word should, but how wedding day should come together, it shouldn’t be a place where you know, people are competing for the same space or thinking that one priority is better than the other like, coming together with people, speaking from my own experience, that I have lots of experience working with, that I talked with outside of the wedding day. It just makes the day so much more enjoyable. But I realized recently how rare it actually is, it seems, because I was talking to a friend who, we were saying, like we both just booked the same client. And they seemed shocked that we not only knew each other but that we had such a great relationship outside of the wedding industry. And so it makes me think like, what are people seeing at the weddings that they’re attending as guests that this is such a surprising thing. So I hope to see more of this whole dream team vibe coming together as we continue on and what is hopefully going to start being more and more regular of wedding seasons compared to the last couple of years.
Ally Lightfoot-Atkinson 24:17
Yes, oh my gosh, I hope so. But it’s so true. It’s when you have that great relationship. And when you’re comfortable working together, you’ve worked even if you haven’t worked together before, if you’ve communicated positively and you know, it just makes a whole day. Fantastic for the family, for the couple, for their friends. And it’s, it’s so true. I’d love to get to a place where that is just every event and there aren’t events where someone leaves feeling like they had to battle a different vendor all day and again for you know, for my team that that is rare, but I know that it’s happened before and I know that it happens to others, but you know getting to a point where we’re all working together and we can kind of put aside what We may, may need, I mean, not to the point where it affects our services, but to the point where it allows everybody to thrive together and not just, you know, not just one member. And that goes for us as well. Like, my team needs to always be aware that although we would love more time to move chairs And to do all of these little details, it doesn’t always work like that. Sometimes we have to start at 6am so that we can be done by one o’clock so that you can shoot it. And it’s, that’s just how it is. And, you know, we try our best to make sure that we remember that too and we can always be compromising so that everybody as a, as a whole can work together for the day to go as smoothly as possible.
Sandra Henderson 25:37
It’s so so important to stay flexible on a wedding day, I think regardless of what vendor you are, anything can happen. And so that’s a conversation that I have with my team as well. Like, you just kind of have to roll with the punches and like, don’t stress about anything that can happen.
Ally Lightfoot-Atkinson 25:54
Yeah, absolutely. And there’s, something always goes wrong. I’ve never had a wedding day out of the many, many, many weddings I’ve done, I’ve never had a wedding day where I was like, wow, that was flawless, nothing went wrong. Something always goes wrong. And they mean, that’s why most people hire us, because they know that things will go wrong, and so they think I’ll get someone to help. And then they realize all of the other things that we can help with too, in relieving stress along the way, and on the wedding day, working with everybody to just kind of resolve it, and they never know. But yeah, it’s so important to be able to work together so that the day is positive and happy, and loving. And that’s how it should be.
Sandra Henderson 26:29
Absolutely. I remember when I was planning my wedding, I like, in hindsight, definitely should have hired a wedding planner. I did work with the day of coordinator and my parents, specifically, like, thought that it was just the most unnecessary out of this world expense. And I will even say like, I traded part of my, the cost of my coordinator for photography services. So like I wasn’t even paying full price. And they just thought it was the craziest thing – until after the wedding day. And then they both kind of were like, Okay, no, that was probably the best decision that you could have made. And I so so agree, having someone else that’s there that can handle any of those little hiccups that go wrong, because they do go wrong. And things like that. Like it just it makes the day so much more enjoyable From the couple’s perspective.
Ally Lightfoot-Atkinson 27:17
Absolutely. And for your parents as well in the family, I get that often where you know, the maid of honor or the mom or whoever they’re kind of on the fence about a planner, normally about partway- halfway through the experience, when we’re talking about permits and licenses, that’s normally when it all turns around, and they’re like, whoa, we didn’t want to do that. But yeah, on the day itself, for those who do hire someone who is more of that, like day of, month of management planner, it’s just so important to have somebody there who is able to, to help you through all of that. And then also who’s able to work with your vendor team And make sure also that, again, everyone is compromising to make sure that we’re getting the best timing, and the best, the best shots and you know, getting it, getting it all organized together for the best day possible.
Sandra Henderson 28:08
Yeah, absolutely. So one last question that I had for you – when it comes to recommending wedding photographers to your clients, what are some things that you are looking for specifically, whether it be you know, the look of their portfolio that they have a certain number of, a certain number of years experience under their belt? working exclusively with people that you’ve worked with before? How does that look for you?
Ally Lightfoot-Atkinson 28:32
Yeah, absolutely. That’s a great question. So with every vendor, so I specialize in helping my clients find every single vendor. So with photography, specifically, we start with a document that runs them through basically just basic editing styles. So just to get an idea of what kind of style they’re looking for their images to look like at the end of the day, are we looking for something that’s light, and it’s timeless? And it’s classic? And that’s going to match what we’re thinking? Are we looking for something maybe a little bit more, a little bit moody or a little bit with deeper tones? Like what are we looking for? So we start there, we get a really good idea of what they’re wanting to see at the end of the day. And then I ask them to rank, there’s 14 different areas, I ask them to rank them one to 14, everything from like couples photos together to candid guest photos to candid photos of them, posed photos, detail shots, getting ready photos, and I ask them to rank them all so I can get a really good idea of what they would like to see. And it’s so interesting, and I got I brought it up a little bit earlier but it’s very interesting to see which ones come in higher, more often. And I I would actually say that it’s those getting-ready photos are normally in like the top five areas. And so I always make sure that, to leave enough time there and that’s not a place where we’re rushing or Make sure that we’re recommending a larger package, or I’m searching for someone where a large package is within our budget. But I get them to basically break all that down for me. So I can see what’s important again, like if getting ready is number one, and sunset is number two, then we’re going to be searching for a longer package. But if those things are both at the very, very bottom, and like the ceremony, the wedding party photos or those were at the top, then that’s different than we may do it a little bit differently. So that’s where I start. So I first get an idea of the, of the editing style that they feel that they’re looking for. And then they get an idea of the type of photos that they’re looking for, including like more post photos, more candid photos, so I can understand what style of editing and then what style of photography they’re looking for, at the end of the day. From there, Honestly, I look at personality and portfolio. And that’s really all that it is For me, I don’t really worry about the years of experience, that is not really ever something that honestly crosses my mind. Same thing, people I’ve worked with previously, the only reason why I would say that I do tend to work with, you know, certain photographers more consistently is just because I know their personality And I know that them as a human is going to be a great fit for our vendor team. And it’s going to be a great fit for that couple. If I have like a really shy, really quiet couple, they’re really timid, I’m probably not going to pair them with an also quieter, more timid photographer, probably going to get them someone who’s a little bit more in the middle who was able to direct the day, not aggressively, but someone who is able to kind of leave that day for them. So that they’re feeling comfortable through everything.
Ally Lightfoot-Atkinson 31:37
So I mean, ultimately, we start by understanding the styles that they’re looking for, and then how much time we need. And then from there, we can understand who personality wise is going to be a good fit for them. And then again, typically, you know, pricing is what would come next. And then that would be based on the hours that were required, paired with style, paired with, you know, with everything else to kind of get them those best options. So typically, I reach out to about five vendors in every category to check for availability and pricing. And then typically, I will present two to three of each vendor to my clients so that they can really get a good idea of the options out there for them who I already feel are going to be the perfect fit personality-wise, they’re a great fit, you know, for them in terms of what they said they were looking for style-wise, and they fit with their budget. So basically, then it just comes down to who they feel is the best person for them. And we typically set up meetings where they’ll just they’ll talk and I sit back and I just listen. And you talk all about your process and what they’re looking for. And then we get to a point where they’re torn, because again, their search has been narrowed to three people who I don’t think they could really go wrong anyway. And then I tell them that it’s all just at that point, it’s kind of down to personality. And you know, everyone is beautiful, and everyone is wonderful. But it’s who do you want to spend those 10, eight to 10-plus hours with on your wedding day, like who do you feel comfortable with. And I want my couples to surround themselves with every vendor who will make them feel calm and relaxed, and you know, at peace and happy with their day.
Sandra Henderson 33:20
Yeah, that’s so important is having like your dream team of vendors being calm, cool, and collected through the whole day. So, so important. And I love how thorough your process is to recommend photographers to your clients. I saw a lot when I was, more when I was first starting out in the industry, that there was a lot of couples who would hire a photographer with the assumption that all you need to do is press a button and you can do whatever style I want from there. And you like, my I always go to like, food and restaurant examples When I talk about things like this as an analogy, when you go to McDonald’s, and you order a hamburger, you’re not going in expecting the quality of the Keg for like something that you would order there. And so you have to kind of like have an understanding when you’re searching for a wedding photographer that you want to look at the style that you want, and hire someone who already does that style and that thing that you’re looking for, as opposed to just hiring any photographer and getting a light and airy photographer when you really want dark and moody photos.
Ally Lightfoot-Atkinson 34:27
Yeah, exactly. And that’s why that’s kind of the place that I start. And I find, you know, some couples have an idea, but some couples really, they don’t know. And they’re kind of at the point where they’re just not even sure what direction to go in. And at that point We’ll talk them through that as well And we’ll, we’ll talk about you know what kind of photos they like to see, what photos do you hang in your house like, talk to us about that. And it is a very thorough process and it’s like that with every vendor, which I suppose is why it takes me so long to plan each wedding. But we want to make sure that they’re getting The right person the first time. it happened a lot through COVID, But even in regular times, we’ve had a lot of people who have hired us kind of partway through their process And they’ve, you know, maybe hired a handful of vendors, and they get there And they think we hired this person because they did our friend’s wedding, or we hired this person ’cause we saw them on social media And we thought it looks good So we just did it. But we’re kind of getting into it now And we’re understanding that maybe that’s not what we’re looking for, again, because they thought you could just kind of, you know, point, shoot, and away it goes. And that’s definitely a large misconception. I think we’re getting a little bit better or getting a little bit away from that. But, hopefully, but yeah, it’s so important to me that we’re finding the right person the first time and that there’s never a moment where any of my couples are feeling any kind of like regret or they’re second-guessing, or they’re worried about the wedding day And it’s you know, I’m, I’m the first person to say that not everyone is the best fit for everybody. Like, I know that there are many couples out there and our personality, or personalities, where it just might not mesh together. And that’s okay because there’s going to be a wedding planner for you. I know there is, I will help you find them. But it’s you know, it’s so important to just make sure you’re getting those right people. And so for me as the planner, it’s extra-extra important to make sure my clients are getting those right people right from the beginning.
Sandra Henderson 36:24
Yeah, exactly. So so true. So important. I love that. All right. Well, that wraps up everything that I have. Thank you so much. That was absolutely amazing. And I just want to ask before we wrap things up, where does everybody find you on social media?
Ally Lightfoot-Atkinson 36:39
Yes, absolutely. So @perfectlydesignedevents. I am on, primarily most active on Instagram, you can also find me on my website perfectlydesignedevents.com. Through there you can see all of my portfolio on there as well as the different services that we offer. And again, we focus on full-service wedding and event planning. So we aim to be a part of the process kind of from the very, very beginning, all the way to the end. And within that, we have customized packages to make it kind of work best for our couples in their budget, but our goal is to be there the whole way.
Sandra Henderson 37:15
Amazing.
Sandra Henderson 37:16
Okay, before I wrap up today’s episode, if you’re listening to this in real-time, you know it is Black Friday week! make sure you’re following me on Instagram all week long, And if you are not that’s @simplysandrayvonne because I am sharing discounts on all of my favourite business systems and services. contracts from the legal Paige, website templates from the Tonic Site Shop, gallery sites, CRMs, and so much more. If your business needs a little TLC over your off-season this year, now is the perfect chance to take advantage of all the savings available.
(Outro Music)
Thanks so much for listening to Keeping It Candid: Wedding Photography Unfiltered with Sandra Henderson! You can find full show notes from today’s episode at simplysandrayvonne.ca/keepingitcandid. In the meantime – let’s connect! You can find me on Instagram @simplysandrayvonne, and on Facebook in the Wedding Photography Unfiltered community! If you’re loving this podcast, I’d be so honoured if you’d go ahead and hit that subscribe button and leave me a review!
Until next time!
Ally Lightfoot-Atkinson from Perfectly Designed Events
Website | https://www.perfectlydesignedevents.com
IG | @perfectlydesignedevents
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About Ally
Ally is the Owner & Lead Wedding Planner at Perfectly Designed Events, serving all of Southwestern Ontario. We specialize in full-service Wedding & Event Planning to allow our clients to have the most seamless experience possible, designing every little detail to ensure that your event is perfectly yours, and full of unforgettable moments.
(Intro Music)
Welcome to Keeping it Candid – Wedding Photography Unfiltered for photographers who want to keep it real. I’m your host, Sandra Henderson, international wedding and family photographer and educator with a Marie Kondo-style approach to running a business – you know, keeping things simple and getting rid of anything that doesn’t bring you joy!
More importantly, I’m a strong enneagram 3w2 who is obsessed with tacos, and my love for travelling plus navigating chronic illness life are just two of the many things that drive my passion for all things systems, workflows, and beating burnout as a business owner.
Join me twice a month for a candid, behind-the-scenes look at what it’s really like working as a wedding photographer – where I’ll give you actionable steps to take your business to the next level. Absolutely no fluff here, friends! So grab your favourite notebook and pen, and let’s dive into this week’s episode.
Welcome, friends!! You’re listening to the very first episode of a special series here on Keeping It Candid!
There are so many different types of vendors that come together on a wedding day, and we all have one main goal – helping our clients have the wedding day of their dreams. And yet, for some reason, it’s so common to find vendors acting like they are the only ones who truly care about the couple, and that every other vendor on the team not only doesn’t know what they’re doing, but is also harboring negative, ulterior motives to make sure the other vendors can’t succeed.
Why is that?! Why do we think things like this?!
Let’s pause for a minute and really think about it. Who is benefiting from one vendor preventing another from doing their job? Not the clients, that’s for sure. And definitely not either vendor.
Now listen – I’m not saying shitty things like this never happen. People suck and do questionable things sometimes. But as a whole, the majority of the time it’s wrong to assume that anyone has intentions any different than yours – to serve the couple, to make sure they have an incredible, stress-free wedding day, to have beautiful decor and eat delicious food and dance the night away, and of course – to have all the photos and videos they can to cherish for years to come.
That’s truly what we all want from a wedding day, and when every vendor can come together with that same mentality, with community-based thinking that drives collaboration and supporting one another – that’s when you get a dream-team vibe that will not only make your clients happy, but also make the whole wedding day so much more enjoyable.
And that’s what brought me to creating the Local Vendor Series, a five-part podcast series where I connected with different vendors local to the London, Ontario area that I’ve had a chance to work with over the last few years. We talked about things like why it’s so important to work together to create that ‘dream team’ vibe, how we can support and serve one another, and some of the ‘do’s’ and ‘don’t’s’ we’ve come across during our time in the industry.
First up, my good friend Dave, who also deserves a special shout-out for being one of my top podcast listeners. He’s the owner of The Alpha DJ Company and is widely known and respected as one of the top wedding and event DJ’s in the London, Ontario area. He began DJing in 2001 and has put in the work to get to where he is now, DJing some of the biggest events in the city and growing his business to now include a team of more than 15 people.
This interview was the perfect way to kick this series off, so let’s dive in, shall we?
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Sandra: Thanks so much for joining me, it’s going to be really weird talking to you and like such a formal setting.
Dave: I was feeling the same way, like, are we supposed to pretend that we aren’t actual friends? Are supposed to like just act like we’re network fellow professionals?
Sandra:(laughs) Awesome. Alright, well tell me a little bit about yourself – who you are, or where you come from…
Dave: I would love to, I would love to. Thank you for having me. My name is Dave in real life, or my business is The Alpha DJ Company. I am more commonly known as DJ Alpha in the wedding industry. I’ve been DJing for about, oh gosh, 20 years now, and I have a wife, who most of the time loves me very much, and two amazing boys.
Sandra: Yes, we love Amanda, and the boys. You get third place in that, but that’s just the rules. That’s how it happens.
Dave: Yeah. I love finding out secondhand, like, things that my wife has sent to you guys to use as collateral against me!
Sandra: It’s one of the reasons, one of the many reasons, why we love her so much!
Dave: (laughs) She’s up for anybody who, like, non-stop harasses me!
Sandra: It’s the best!
Alright, so, I wanted to put together this podcast where I talk to different wedding vendors in the industry, to kind of broach the subject more of like putting together a dream team of wedding vendors and getting rid of the idea that everybody needs to compete for the same space because our end goal at the end of the day, is all to be serving the same couple, and the same clients, and there’s no one, as far as I know anyway, that’s showing up on the wedding day, that’s just there for themselves and no other purpose and like, wants to screw other vendors over to make their lives more difficult or anything like that. So I wanted to know, what has your experience been like working with wedding vendors – er, wedding vendors, (I meant) wedding photographers, in the past?
Dave: I’m happy to say that most of my experience with wedding photographers has been really good. Most photographers are quite easy to work with, quite flexible, happy to do a bit of give-and-take in terms of making sure that the outcome of the wedding a successful. So most of them, I would say, are definitely here for the right reasons. And it really makes a difference on my end too, because obviously, you know, worrying about making sure the couple is having the best day of their lives should be everybody’s top priority. And, you know, worrying that some vendor isn’t going to do the thing they’re supposed to do or might prevent you from doing the thing you’re supposed to do… Like, that should not have had any time spent on it at all.
Sandra: Ya, I totally agree. So when it comes to, like, events during the reception and things like that, do you have a lot of interaction with photographers and kind of, like, making sure that things are running on schedule and things like that? How much do you like to kind of get input and feedback from the other vendors on the wedding day?
Dave: Ya I think that’s a great question, in terms of kind of what is expected from me. And I guess, kind of maybe what I expect from other vendors, specifically from photographers. I do try to keep the lines of communication is open as possible. Mostly because I respect that certain things that they do are very time-sensitive whereas most of the things in my role are not time sensitive. So if you’re going to do anything from, you know, those late-night sparkler shots, to maybe even firework shots, to sunset shots… Those are all things that, like, it really matters that they’re very close to the time that they’re supposed to be at, whereas for me, you know, whether we have the first dance at 8:00pm or 9:00pm, it doesn’t actually change the first dance at all. So my timeline’s a whole lot more flexible than theirs. So I try to be as open and transparent as I can with them and also find that I’m often kind of on the side, you know, one of the proponents of saying like ‘let’s get this timeline back where it’s supposed to be’ – as we know most weddings kind of lean towards running a little late, so anytime I can help to move things along – even 5 minutes, I find, can sometimes can make a pretty big difference in the world of photography. I try to keep it, you know, it’s as close to the timeline is can possibly happen.
Sandra: That’s one of the, like, my favourite thing about working with your team and with other DJs that have the same kind of idea is that, like, I don’t want to take the couple and disappear for sunset photos and then have the DJ go to start the first dance and can’t find anybody. Like, I think it’s so important to have that open line of communication throughout the whole wedding day regardless of what your actual job is for the next few hours.
Dave: I couldn’t agree more.
Sandra: I’m so do you have any like “please do” or “please don’t” scenarios that you can think of from previous interactions with photographers – speaking of like people making a couple disappear on expectedly and things like that!
Dave: Yes, yes, absolutely, I’m glad you brought that up. Actually, let’s start with that “please don’t” ‘cause you just mentioned it. So, obviously, from our perspective, you know, wherever, and whenever you need to take a couple, like, that’s something that you two agreed to, and probably agreed to with the venue. So it’s like, you know, far be it from us in the DJ role to try to overstep there and say, ‘oh you shouldn’t do this.’
I would ask, as a humble request, if, for example, if there is a way that we can arrange the timeline that, as such, so that once we start the party that we don’t then take out the couples, that we don’t take out the heart of the party and go off to do, you know, 30-40 minutes of pictures outside or with family or whatever. Again, this is in a perfect world it wouldn’t happen like that, only in the way that you know, once we lose our couple from the dance floor, everything becomes a lot harder for our, from our perspective, for our jobs and you know, usually if they don’t see a bride or groom or someone who just got married out on the dance floor, they seem a lot less inclined to want to spend time out there unless the drinks have really been flowing for the past couple hours. So, yeah, in a perfect world I’d love to make sure that didn’t happen.
But in terms of “please do,” amazingly, the bar is super, super low. Obviously, you know, please let us know what it is that we can do to help you out. Again, from a selfish perspective, we would love absolutely love if you maybe include us when you send out the albums to them, if you – if that’s something that is permitted, depending on your agreement with the couple. We would love – because we love to see the pictures! But also, you know, we’d love to see if we made the album at all. We use those pictures for everything. We use them, obviously, for marketing and promotion. That’s a huge purpose of them, but we also use them for training. For example, I just shared an album with our team last week, where we had about a dozen pictures of our DJ in the background. And one of the things that we teach our DJ’s is, you know, make sure at all times that you’re actively listening. So you’re never just back there scrolling on your phone or kind of, you know, dead-faced, looking at your laptop, especially during speeches. And this was the example, is we had about 12 pictures where our DJ was in the background reacting to the speeches. So you know, looking sad at times where it was a little bit sadder, laughing along with the guests at the wedding. All things that, you know, you’re- you’re literally in the background of the people speaking, and so there’s 200 people who can see your reaction to the speech. So act like you want to be there and be part of this.
But I can’t believe how many times… Like, I’ll even have a photographer take pictures of me, or of DJs on our team and, you know they’re going to be great shots ‘cause it’s like you with, you know, a full dance floor, maybe like a cool angle of you and, you know they’re great and they exist somewhere in the universe, but they don’t exist in my inbox, that’s for sure. And I’ve even, same with videographers, I’ve reached out after the wedding and I feel like there’s some unwritten rule that I just haven’t learned yet. But I can tell you, for every 99 photographers who say like “oh I’ll send these to you!” – they even take my phone number or email – one of them actually comes through and delivers on it. It’s unbelievable and I’m not sure why – there’s a culture that exists that I do not understand.
Sandra: Oh, that’s so true. I hear that from a lot of different vendors too. I know for, like, myself, sometimes I just forget but yeah, it’s definitely… In the, like, photography community there are definitely mixed vibes when it comes to giving photos to other vendors. I personally think that it’s a great way to network and make connections and build those dream team vendor relationships, but there’s definitely people who don’t feel that way. I think that goes across the board!
Dave: It’s so wild. Like why even take the picture though? If you’re like, if you’re like, this is not how I choose to network with other vendors. Like why act like you do, right?
Sandra: Yeah. Oh absolutely. I totally agree with that! So, I’m glad that you brought up the topic of getting photos. When it comes to DJ’s specifically, like, we can’t necessarily perfectly capture what it is that you’re doing. Like, we can take those, hopefully, images of a packed dance floor and things like that, but from the photos that you have received are there ways that you think that have worked better than others, when it comes to capturing what a DJ is fully bringing to a wedding day?
Dave: You know, honestly, I’m not sure that there is. I’m not sure there’s a great answer to that to say like ‘here’s an album of, whatever, 10 pictures and now, after you’ve seen this album you know exactly what to expect from this DJ.’ I think, like, if anything, you could maybe give some indications of what, you know, in terms of like, how does this DJ dress? What does DJ look like? What does their equipment look like? You know, how does a dance floor react to the things they do? I think you could answer those questions but yeah, to say, like, here’s 100% of what you can expect if you hire this DJ because of these 10 photos, I don’t think so. And also, if I can just add, I also, like, this is… I wholeheartedly respect that no photographer has ever gone to a wedding for a client in been like “here, I’m going to, after I get all these couple photos, like part of my job is to get pictures of your job. Like I know that it’s not and in fact, like even if you took pictures of people dancing and everything like I know that those are going in the album. That’s the point of those pictures. I’m just saying that if I ever, since I was asked! I’d love to also be able to have those pictures. And like, please watermark the hell out of them because that actually save me from going in and finding, ‘oh ya, where did this photo come from six summers ago?’
Sandra: Absolutely. Ya, I totally agree with that. I know if I were not the one behind the camera, I would want to find a way to make the transaction of exchanging photos mutually beneficial and things like that and not just make it seem like, you know, everybody is looking for the photographers to do more work. Like the work is already being done. There’s a way that it can, it can be, we can share the wealth. That’s for sure. That’s my opinion!
Dave: I think, too, like, in the world of photography is like you guys probably don’t think much of, you know, I guess I should say like, the frequency of pictures that you give or take, because this is your life. All you, all you do is talk in pictures. Whereas like, even if you’re like “oh you know, I captured a picture of the caterer just as they were getting ready to serve the meal”, which is like, you just happened to get that picture. Like that caterer probably has about five pictures. Like, even if they’ve been doing it for 30 years, they probably have five pictures of them about to serve their meal because like, who’s ever taking that picture? So, like, to that caterer, I feel like that’s such a valuable thing that they will hang on to forever, whereas I get it, like, in your world, you’re like, this might even be a throwaway photo, like, the couple probably doesn’t want this photo, right? So I get it, I get it. It’s a totally different perspective.
Sandra: Ya absolutely. But like you said, when we’re going through those photos, it might not be something that the couple is like, super excited about, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a throwaway photo. There’s definitely ways that you can get the most out of the work that you’re already doing.
Dave: And I think like, I mean, even that example is like, who knows? Maybe the catering was actually the thing they loved the most about their wedding. And if they had a photo of the person who made that happen, it’s like, sure, they’re probably not going to print it out and frame it but like, I still think they value it. I still think they would show people.
Sandra: Oh, a hundred percent. Now that you say that, I’m like – wait a second, I wish there was a photo of the guy from my wedding, ‘cause we had like –
Dave: Right? Like, if you loved your food, it’d be kind of cool.
Sandra: We loved our food and a friend of mine, like, worked with the company that owned our reception venue, and so they pulled some strings and had a special chef come in and like, he was super nice.
Dave: Oh ya, like, I feel like that’s a perfect example. Yeah. And how often does like cool stuff like that happen? Like, when it does I feel like, you know, capturing it is, is – it would be a great idea.
Sandra: Ya, absolutely. We were looking forward to the food from our wedding above anything else (laughs)
Dave: Amazing! Amazing. I feel like a lot of people do. They put in their top three at least!
Sandra: Right? It’s so true. Alright, so into the last question – what impact does it have on you as a DJ on the wedding day when all the vendors that you’re working with are coming together as a dream team and not fighting for the space and just working together really well throughout the day?
Dave: I mean, thankfully, most of the vendors that I work with are very easy to get along with. That being said, I never really thought about that question at all before you asked it, and I guess, I realize that, you know, I always try to show up, you know, my best self and put forward my best work. But there’s definitely a notable difference in the air of vendors if you have a table of vendors, sitting together having a genuinely great time over dinner.
If you are working together out at, you know, a hot and sweaty ceremony but you’re you’re happy to be working with the people that you’re working with. But I think there’s also kind of, I don’t know if it’s a confidence or a self-assurance to be like, ‘hey, you know, I’m going to work today with Sandra, or a wedding planner or videographer, whoever it is that I just absolutely adore, and not only am I going to have a great time, we’re going to, we’re going to probably have some laughs, we’re going to enjoy ourselves, but I also know that like if I slip up or Sandra slips up, that like, this isn’t going to make headline news, right? Like we’ve got each other’s back. I’m going to make sure, you know, Sandra is, you know, whatever the case is – like, aw there’s no outlets around – well, she knows that I have some outlets under my table, she can charge batteries back there. And we also know that, you know, if I forgot some tape to tape down to my wires, like, you know, a good wedding planner is gonna have my back and they’re not going to be showy about either, and act like they saved the wedding. And to me, that – there’s a real value in kind of that assurance of knowing on your way there, like, ‘do I have everything? Yes, I’m sure I have everything but just in case I don’t there’s other people here who are going to help me out’.
And those are just like the obvious examples. Never mind the, I mean, you know, I’m trying to think of like real-life things have happened to me. Like, I’ve had photographers who have been out, just trying – they haven’t captured that shot yet that they really have been working towards. And so you know I’ll go back and tell the venue coordinator like ‘they’re on their way, they’ll be here in two minutes’ knowing full well they won’t be, but just be trying to buy a little bit of time because this is like, somebody who would have my back too, right. And, and I think there’s there’s a lot of confidence and assurance that comes from that, to say like, no matter what happens today, I’ve got a small group of people who are going to have my back.
Sandra: Yeah, that’s so true. I love that answer.
Dave: I genuinely, I’d say, like, even thinking about driving to the wedding, like it makes a difference on your drive there, waking up that morning to be like, all right, I’m working with this All-Star lineup of vendors today.
Sandra: I totally agree and it’s nice, too – you and I have talked about this, how a couple sometimes are surprised when they know that we know each other, that we have a friendship outside of like, you know, we’ve met, we’ve worked together before – we’re friends, we hang out. They are very surprised by this fact. And so, I think the more that like, vendors are able to make those relationships, it really has such a benefit to the couple as well.
Dave: I couldn’t agree more, I think, ya, they think maybe we exist in silos or that we- we don’t ever want to work with each other. I think people seek out the vendors that they think are similar to them and that they like and trust and kind of form whatever, whether it’s a work friendship or a real friendship, or whatever it is. But I definitely think there’s a value to that and I think too that it offers, albeit a little biased, of a, of an opinion of somebody’s asking for a recommendation or referral. I think it also gives you the opportunity to stay like, listen. I- I know Dave as a DJ and, even being honest, to be like straight after learning about you too I don’t actually think he’s the right DJ for you. If that’s the case, which like, honestly I really appreciate it, right? Because like, thanks for the referral but this couple, like, our energies don’t match at all, right? Or inversely, to say like, ‘listen, you’re not looking for any DJs – Dave is the only DJ that is going to be at your wedding and I’m going to text him right now to tell him to hold the date.’ You know, those kinds of things, ‘cause I think genuinely, like, it’s it’s easy for other vendors to kind of sit in a position be like, ‘you know who’s the perfect, whatever, officiant or caterer for this person’ it’s like, I know because I’ve met them all and I know he’s perfect for you. I think there’s a real value there, assuming that you have that trust that that couple you know, truly believes that you were – you put their best interest first.
Sandra: Ya absolutely. Alright – well, to wrap things up if you can let us know, where can we find you online?!
Dave: Oh, for sure. Everything is ‘The Alpha DJ Company’. So Instagram – @thealphadjcompany, Facebook, of course you can look it up on Google, or our website is just alphadj.ca.
Sandra: Amazing. Well, thank you so much again for being here. I absolutely loved this conversation. For everybody who’s listening – make sure you go and give Dave a follow. If you pop onto the show notes, you’ll find some links there to make everything super easy for you. And if you’re local to the London area, make sure you check out some of the events that Dave is a part of during the year. You can usually check him out at Rock the park and other things like that you will definitely not be disappointed.
That was such a fun interview! Just like most things, podcasting is just more fun when your friends are a part of it!
I mentioned at the beginning of the episode that this is just day one of a five-part series here on Keeping It Candid – new episodes are coming your way every day this week! If you’re ready to start cultivating genuine relationships with the vendors in your area to make next year’s wedding season the most fun, stress-free season you’ve had yet – you don’t want to miss an episode so make sure you check back to listen to the rest!
Before I jump off – if you’re listening to this week’s episodes in real time – you know it’s Black Friday week! Make sure you head over to my Instagram – @simplysandrayvonne – because I’m going to be acting like your personal shopper all week long, sharing my favourite items, apps, services, and more that I use to run my business – including things like website templates and contracts!
If you caught last week’s episode of Keeping It Candid where I chatted with Paige Griffith from the Legal Paige, she mentioned that her entire contract shop is on sale for 40% off this week! The sale officially launched today, and if you pop into the show notes for last week’s or today’s episode, you’re going to find a code to get an extra $10 off during the sale!
Hiring an attorney is expensive and something that’s completely out of the realm of possibility for a lot of wedding photographers. That’s why I LOVE the contracts in Paige’s shop so much and have been using them in my own business for years – they’re easy-to-use, easy-to-understand templates that will help you protect the business you’ve worked so hard to create. I know there are tons of Black Friday sales happening this week, but I promise this one is one that you don’t want to miss!
You’ll find all of the links you need in the show notes, including shortcuts to my favourite Canadian law templates in the TLP shop!
I’ll be back tomorrow with part two of the Local Vendor series, talking with my friend Ally, a wedding planner from Perfectly Designed Events.
Until then!
(Outro Music)
Thanks so much for listening to Keeping It Candid: Wedding Photography Unfiltered with Sandra Henderson! You can find full show notes from today’s episode at simplysandrayvonne.ca/keepingitcandid. In the meantime – let’s connect! You can find me on Instagram @simplysandrayvonne, and on Facebook in the Wedding Photography Unfiltered community! If you’re loving this podcast, I’d be so honoured if you’d go ahead and hit that subscribe button and leave me a review!
Until next time!
Dave Galloway from The Alpha DJ Company
Website | https://www.alphadj.ca/
IG | @thealphadjcompany
Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/thealphadjcompany
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About Dave
Dave’s passion for DJing began in 2001 and he has turned it into a career that he’s proud of. From humble beginnings as an intern at a record store, to bars, nightclubs, and house parties, he took every opportunity possible to perfect his skills. He brings the same approach to all his performances; “do it with passion or not at all”. Every single time someone trusts him to step behind the decks at their event, no matter the size, he feels filled with gratitude and is so thankful to be able to live his dream.
I have a question for you – when was the last time you reviewed your engagement session or wedding photography contract?!
A proper wedding photography contract should be one of the first major investments you make in your business. Even before upgrading to higher quality cameras and lenses!
Why?
Most importantly, if anything unexpected happens your contract will protect you legally. It’s also a major difference between a wedding professional and someone who is pursuing photography as a hobby.
A good wedding photography contract does a few things:
*Protects you
*Protects your client
*Sets expectations
Important Wedding Photography Contract Clauses
Of course, it’s important to note that I am NOT a lawyer. Please consult legal professionals to ensure your business is legitimately protected!
That being said, here are a few things I highly recommend you include in your wedding photography contracts:
Usage Rights – detail exactly how your clients can use their photos after they receive them. Copyright laws vary in every country, and you never want to assume that anyone is going to know what that means.
1. Rescheduling + Cancellation Policies – so many things can be learned from what it was like during the pandemic. Having rescheduling and cancellation policies in place is one of them!
2. A Safe Working Environment Clause – as wedding photographers, we interact with all sorts of people. It’s important to protect yourself and set boundaries for what type of behaviour will and will not be tolerated. Don’t forget to also include what will happen in the event a situation occurs where you or your team are unsafe. You may never have to enforce it, but it’s so important to have just in case!
I don’t book a wedding or engagement session without a contract in place at the very beginning. It gives my client information that’s so important for our time together to be successful. That’s not a step I’m ever okay with skipping!
The templates I purchased from The Legal Paige are amazing and I can’t recommend them highly enough! It is a US-based company, but Canadian and international users can change the templates as needed. They are thorough and easy to understand which I love!
Don’t feel awkward about sending contracts when you’re first starting out! And if you’ve been at this for a while now? Don’t head into another busy season without making sure they’re up-to-date with your current policies.
(Intro Music)
Welcome to Keeping it Candid – Wedding Photography Unfiltered for photographers who want to keep it real. I’m your host, Sandra Henderson, international wedding and family photographer and educator with a Marie Kondo-style approach to running a business – you know, keeping things simple and getting rid of anything that doesn’t bring you joy!
More importantly, I’m a strong enneagram 3w2 who is obsessed with tacos, and my love for travelling plus navigating chronic illness life are just two of the many things that drive my passion for all things systems, workflows, and beating burnout as a business owner.
Join me twice a month for a candid, behind-the-scenes look at what it’s really like working as a wedding photographer – where I’ll give you actionable steps to take your business to the next level. Absolutely no fluff here, friends! So grab your favourite notebook and pen, and let’s dive into this week’s episode.
Hey friends! I’m back with another episode of Keeping it Candid and I know I say this every time but I really do mean it – I am SO excited to have today’s guest joining me!
No matter where you’re at in your adventure in the world of wedding photography, I strongly believe it’s never too early – or too late – to make sure your business is legally legit. And if there’s one person who can help make sure that happens, it’s Paige Griffith from The Legal Paige!
Paige is a licensed attorney who specializes in the wedding photography industry. She has an incredible shop filled with templates for everything from wedding contracts to second shooter and associate team contracts to rescheduling clauses and so much more. And even better – with a newly hired Canadian lawyer on the team, there are now Canadian contract templates available in the shop! I’m going to link some of my favourites in the Show Notes so if you’re in need of some new contracts, definitely make sure you go check that out.
I’m a long-time user of Paige’s templates and can’t tell you how much more confident I’ve felt as a business owner since I started using them. They’re well thought out, and cover anything and everything you could possibly need to make sure you and your clients are legally protected before you start this adventure of working together.
But instead of me raving about these templates for the next 30 minutes, how about we dive into this interview instead?!
Check out some of my favourite templates in the TLP shop!
Canadian Wedding Photography Contract
Canadian Second Shooter Contract
Canadian Adventure Elopement Contract
Canadian Rescheduling + Cancellation Bundle
**NOVEMBER 21ST – 28TH – THE LEGAL PAIGE’S ANNUAL BLACK FRIDAY SALE IS HAPPENING! GET 40% OFF THE ENTIRE SHOP! USE CODE SANDRA10 TO SAVE AN ADDITIONAL $10!**
Sandra: Hey Paige! Welcome, and thanks so much for joining me today!! I’m so excited to talk more but before we get to that, I’m going to hand this over to you if you want to introduce yourself a little bit and tell the listeners a little bit more about you.
Paige: Hi everyone! It’s so good to meet you virtually but through audio! Maybe one day we’ll meet in person. But I I love podcasts, it’s a way for me to just connect with people from afar. I know we all live in kind of this online, virtual world, and I am the owner and lead attorney behind The Legal Paige. We’re a legal education platform for online small businesses. So, the, you know, main point behind why I created this business was access to good legal education for creatives and small business owners who primarily run their business online and, you know, marketing through social media channels. I also started a wedding photography business and then blew up into like, you know, wedding and portrait photography business back in the day. I ran that for 8 years and so I was able to kind of marry my legal passions with my entrepreneur ones and I really found this void in the industry where people couldn’t really talk to a lawyer about the business they were running, you know, just like a basic small business lawyer really wouldn’t understand how they’re running their business, how they’re booking clients, what systems they’re using online, how their marketing on social media, like I said previously. So, we created all kinds of free resources for entrepreneurs like yourself. We have blogs, we have a YouTube channel, we have our own podcast – The Legal Paige Podcast, if you’re looking for like a specific legal topic and you like listening to podcasts, that’s the place to find us, as well as a free online group community on Facebook. And so people are able to ask me and my legal team, 1:1 questions there in a group environment, and my legal team and I manage that. So, that is the free education side of our business. On top of that, we also sell contract templates and legal documents. So at any point in your business journey, if you need to update your contract or add in a clause to your existing contract or you’re looking for, you know, that additional short form to add to your legal document suite or legal toolkit, I like to say, then we are here for you along the way. You- remember, entrepreneurship is a journey. It’s not a destination. Things are going to change, client things are going to come up, and you’re going to need to go back to the drawing board a little bit because I know you are your own Chief Legal Officer, right? We were all the hats and our business. And so I just want to empower you to do that in a better, you know, more educated, more knowledgeable way.
Sandra: I LOVE the way that you approach creating all these resources for entrepreneurs and small-business owners. It’s really so apparent that you’re invested in that community and not approaching it with the same mentality that you would a corporation that has hundreds of employees and is pulling in millions of dollars a year. Because like you said, they definitely have their own nuances and their own, like, ebbs and flows and different strategies that they need. And that has been very apparent in my time working with your contract templates and being a part of the community. Side note – if you guys are not in Paige’s Facebook Community, you definitely need to go join – you’ll find the link for that in my show notes. I’ve learned so much the last couple of years. I joined the community during the beginning of the pandemic, and let me tell you, having a space of other people who just understood what we were going through as business owners was huge. So thank you for creating that space and for creating these templates for entrepreneurs who are not necessarily always able to have a lawyer on retainer when they’re first starting out.
Paige: Of course, I love helping, and thank you for saying that! Such kind words. I love our community, whether that’s, you know, in the Facebook group and that’s just more business owners, you guys, it’s really nice. We ask questions, it’s very collegial, like people aren’t judgy. Everyone is very kind, we monitor it heavily so it stays that way! And it’s really the only time, like, you can ask one of them questions to me just because of, you know, attorney-client privilege and things along those lines. It was it was a way for me to like talk to everyone in a more just easy space versus you feeling like you had to pay for an attorney to get help, right. I don’t- I know we don’t all have that type of expendable income in. Like you said, we’re not corporations! Like, we don’t have legal departments, we don’t have in-house counsel. We don’t have the ability to spend thousands and thousands of dollars on a legal retainer. So that’s why I do what I do, and it’s, it’s been so fun over the past, four to five years, growing The Legal Paige, and being able to reach more and more entrepreneurs each and every day.
Sandra: Oh ya I can imagine! And as someone who is based in Canada, I was so excited over the last year when you started launching Canadian templates in your store. When I was using your US law templates it just took like a little bit of tweaking with the help of a lawyer, but Canadians are definitely happy to see a little bit less work on our plate and just being able to access those templates! But speaking of – if someone purchases templates from your shop and they are making those modifications, do you recommend that those modifications be done with the help of a licensed lawyer? Or are they written in such a way that you can just input your information and they’re good to go from there?
Paige: Yeah, great question. So as a lawyer, I’m going to answer this with, it depends. So, so fun for all of you listening! First and foremost, we draft our contract templates, and with the help of a Canadian lawyer that we now have on board – she is phenomenal! She has really helped it be like a one-and-done for you, right. We want to be able to press the easy button and just get ‘em up and running for your business, like, within 20 to 30 minutes of you downloading it. So, it’s pretty simple. In terms of just going in, we handhold you through the process when you open the document, there’s memos on the sides, there’s like highlighted information in yellow. We tell you what to put there and where to put it! I always say it depends because, of course, as a lawyer, I need to disclaim, ya, there are some things I really don’t want you touching in the contract. Such as language that you don’t even know what it means because it’s in legal, speak or legalese, as we like to say in the lawyer world. If you’re confused about what it means, please don’t touch that clause because it’s in there for a reason and really, lawyers who are well-versed and experienced in contract law are the ones that should be modifying those types of clauses. And the good news is, is like I said, we hand hold you. We’re not going to tell you to modify that clause. You will see, I call them specialized clauses related to your specific unique industry, right? Like if you’re a wedding photography, the delivery and, like, edits of image clause, right, a retouching clause, an archiving clause for online galleries. Those don’t have legal speak in them. They don’t have legal terms in them. It’s just all about your business policies and on the side, and we walk you through this, we will tell you, like, modify this to your business practices. So those are the ones you absolutely can tweak yourself and as things come up, like I said, in your business, you’re going to want to tweet those certain clauses pertaining to you know, a client sticky situation that popped up or there was confusion from a client on something or you’re like, oh I should probably add in a heftier rescheduling fee because I’m getting kind of walked all over by my clients and having to reschedule 24/7. Those are all things you can modify on your own without a lawyers help. I would just caution you, the bottom part of all of our contract templates, if you have a full-length Legal Paige contract template, those are like, miscellaneous provisions or general provisions that you see in every contract, right, an entire agreement clause, a counterparts and facsimile signature clause, a severability clause, venue and jurisdiction clause – those are the clauses we do not suggest that you touch besides entering your own right, like, Province or territory or region, where things are going to occur and we’ll tell you where to put that. But you’ll know. If it’s a red flag and you’re like “oooh, I shouldn’t touch this clause!” – that’s when I would suggest that you get a lawyer. But for the most part, I really want to have people be able to be their own legal department, right. That’s the whole point behind contract templates. So we try to make it as simple as possible for you to use on your own without hiring a lawyer.
Sandra: That’s so helpful, and ya the templates really are so easy to use.. And I love that you said your contracts are always changing as you learn and grow as a business owner. I remember when I was first starting out, this is pre-TLP templates or using any sort of template for that matter, I was just kind of like winging it on my own, and my husband was always saying, like, ‘you just finished your contract and then you had a session and now you’re changing your contract again’ – but you learn and you grow and you want to make sure that you’re protected as are going forward so that you don’t run into these hurdles and roadblocks again going forward.
Paige: Yeah. I told people, you know, every year is kind of a good time line for you to do a DIY contract audit for yourself. I think during the winter season in offseason, especially for photographers in the wedding industry and event industry is a really good time to do this. Where, not only are you looking at your finances and then you’ve got to get like all that in order, you should be looking at all those back-end systems including your contracts and just being like ‘what happened this year? What questions came up? What things irked me as a service provider? Is there something I can make more clear in my contract? And we have really good resources, you guys, at TheLegalPaige.com, for you to do a DIY contract audit every single year. You know, if every year is still a little bit, a little bit, like “ah!” and your stomach is rumbling and your, your heart is beating a little bit faster, it gives you some panic – every two years is fine as well, but just don’t wait for you know, five, ten years down the road for you to be like ‘oh I should probably revise my contract’ because at that point it’s a little too late and you haven’t set some clear boundaries for upcoming clients.
Sandra: Yeah, that’s so true. And I think, after the last couple years, small business owners as a whole, but definitely wedding photographers, are seeing more than ever how important it is to have all of those bases covered and update them frequently so that you’re not stuck in a situation where… Well, hopefully, none of us ever have to go through another pandemic again, but if we do like, that’s not the time you want to be finding out that there’s some holes in your contract.
Paige: Yeah. It’s been a, it’s been an interesting few years and I always tell people now looking back, right, we’ve had more than a couple of years, we’re at, oh my gosh, we’re almost at 2.5-3 (years) for some of you listening to this kind of at the end of 2022, but we- we kind of need to approach what has happened over the past few years as a silver lining, right? We as business owners have more laser focus on our contracts than ever before. As do your clients! And you need to remember that’s reciprocated. It’s a two-way street, your contracts, being signed by you and all parties involved. So your clients are looking at contracts and probably have a little bit more gusto for contract negotiations than they did in the past. Because they now know like, ‘oh, I need to look at these. Like, I can’t just scroll and sign on the dotted line. Like, these are important that they have impacted me over the past couple of years.’ So take that approach as well, right? Like if your clients are seriously looking at your contracts, you need to be looking at your contracts even more. Like, at least, two to three times more than your clients do.
Sandra: Yeah. Absolutely, that’s so important. Now, speaking of clauses and all the things that we’ve had to navigate over the last few years, do you think that there any clauses within any given contract that are significantly more important for wedding photographers now than they were, say, back in 2019?
Paige: Oh yeah! Okay, here’s the list, everybody! First and foremost – force majeure Clause, not a surprise I would start with that! Make sure your force majeure Clause is super clear that was the number one cause, right, that everyone was trying to invoke March, April, and May of 2020, and we were all like, “oh my gosh! What does our contract actually say in relation to a force majeure event?!” and they just weren’t super clear. And here’s the thing, like, it’s nobody’s fault. We’ve never experienced this before. And so, lawyers were going back to the drawing board and courts were trying to interpret what force moves are actually meant in the face of a pandemic. So, we live and we learn, as we do as entrepreneurs, and your force majeure Clause needs to 1) have language surrounding what a force majeure event is, K. What is an act of God? It is an unforeseeable unpredictable event that makes it impossible to perform. That is KEY. You need those words in your force majeure Clause because now covid is not unpredictable and unforeseeable, so it is not a force majeure event anymore. And then you need to explain what happens when somebody has like a force majeur situation happen to them, right, like if a hurricane comes through. We see this South all the time. We just saw it really badly in Florida, in the United States, with the hurricane that recently came through and force majeure was invoked yet again. And who is the impacted party, then your force majeure Clause just needs to explain like notice, right? If you’re impacted by a force majeure event, how, like, how do you give notice to the other party? And then this is really important – And if anything away from this episode, I would hope you take this – at the end of your force majeure Clause, this was not in any contract prior to the pandemic – What happens with fees paid?! What happens to the contract? Like okay, you can terminate, that’s what a force majeure Clause says. It’s like it’s not a breach of contract if something like this impacts of party from non-performance. But then what? Okay, so they don’t perform. Is the contract ripped up? Is it void? What happens to fees paid? And I always say fees paid stay on credit and then they can be utilized in a certain amount of time, post-force majeure event. So it’s like, you’re pressing pause on the current contract, you’re keeping fees paid, you’re allowing the parties to not perform. It’s no big deal, right? It’s not a breach, but we are going to resume performance at a later date. So the force majeure Clause, absolutely number one.
Second, a couple clauses, I’m just going to briefly go through these ‘cause I could obviously go down the rabbit hole here, but Cancellation and rescheduling clauses – you guys, make those really clear. I want you to have a cancellation by client Claus. I want you to have a rescheduling by client Claus. So those are voluntary reschedules or cancellations on your clients part, and then a separate Clause when you need to cancel as the service provider – and that needs to be really clear as well. Like, what circumstances would arise whereby you have to kind of back out, or change your performance under the contract. And all of those we have in all of our full-length contracts and we have a la carte clauses as well. If you guys are listening to me and you’re like, “oh, gosh, I need to beef up that clause,” don’t worry, we have a la carte clauses. You can copy and paste them into your existing contract.
The very, very final one that I just wanted to quickly touch on Is – people are like do I still need to cover the clause in my contract? Well, I don’t want you to have a covid cause that’s like “here’s covid, if it happens, like, this is what we’re going to do. I actually want you to have like a no-holds bar Claus related to covid scenarios. And I call it an acknowledgement of covid clause, and no rescheduling. We all remember we were like, kind of trying to help our clients through the process, give them endless rescheduling and cancellations and we were just trying to like help, right? We were trying to help. Everyone is trying to help everyone. We’re all in the same boat at the same time. But now, like I said with force majeure, and these go hand in hand. If covid isn’t force majeure event anymore, but it’s still happening each and every day and it’s still something we need to be mindful of, and your clients are going to have questions about, right? Like what happens if I contract covid? Or what happens if you contract covid, you know? Usually you probably don’t want to go out and about and there’s a mandatory quarantine still in place if you contract it, maybe not for like close contacts anymore. But if you do, like, you can’t perform. You shouldn’t perform, right? Just for health reasons. So is that happens and if an acknowledgement of covid really means, like, what are your business policies surrounding reschedules and cancellations and so on and so forth. It’s a – it’s essentially like an assumption of risk clause, is what I tell people. It’s, it’s in relation to covid, but it’s saying like your clients assume the risk of planning this service with you in the middle of a pandemic and they know that you can contract covid or they could be a close contact or things are going to happen. And in those scenarios they don’t get to just have a complimentary reschedule, right? Like they have put themselves in a position where they may get covid and if they do that that’s not- that shouldn’t be on you. Your business shouldn’t bear that burden. Of course, if you get covid you need to like, right, reschedule do everything you can possible to serve these clients well. But, yeah, those are those are like the big five clauses. I know I went through them really fast but make sure those are in your contract. I would say most people have those pretty well fleshed out in their contracts nowadays.
Sandra: Oh my gosh, that was so helpful. I hope that everyone listening is taking notes, I know I was the whole time that page was talking! If you weren’t then give this episode another run-through and make sure you write all those down because that was absolute gold. That will be so helpful, especially as a wedding photographers are heading into engagement season and getting ready for next year’s wedding season, it’s so important to have all of that in there.
So maybe I should have asked this question before we got started talking about different causes and things like that, but when I connect with photographers who are in their first couple of years of business or in the industry, I hear a lot of people say things like, “you know, I’m just doing this part-time, I’m not professional, I’m still new. I don’t need a contract yet.” and I would love to hear from a lawyer’s perspective, how you feel about that, and what your thoughts are on people saying things like, they don’t need a contract.
Paige: Yeah, I mean, I think you need a contract, like, the minute you start anything. If there’s any exchange of like funds whatsoever, you have liability and risk attached to that, and people are going to be more concerned if something bad were to happen or something to displease them, right? Or Services weren’t rendered up to their standard because they exchanged money with you. So absolutely, if you’re doing anything, I don’t care if it’s a $50 session, I don’t care if it’s a, you know, $5,000 wedding – you have to have a contract in place. I also say for, like, family and friends – even then you need a contract. Honestly, even more, because they are going to ask you to bend over backwards for them, and like, really try to like, lots of times like milk you because there wasn’t a contract in place. Like they’re like, oh well, they’re my friend or they’re my family and they’ll do above and beyond what they do Normally for clients because it’s me. So setting those boundaries. Contracts are all about setting boundaries. Don’t put yourself in a position where you never had any boundaries and then you have nothing to fall back on or like have a leg to stand on so to speak.
In terms of your, you know, the the only thing that I would differentiate here, is like a wedding and an event if your wedding photographer listening, there is 1) Higher emotions involved in that, 2) a lot of vendors involved in that, and 3) lot of money involved in that. And with that means you need a bigger contract to protect yourself. So if you just have like a one pager document as a wedding photographer, I can guarantee legally that’s not going to cut it. So you know, do your due diligence. I always, I always want to press upon people that contracts are even more important than your website and your Instagram account, like, way more important! And I know the other things are shiny and they’re important for marketing reasons, but your marketing means nothing if your business is gone and you didn’t have a contract in place to protect you from the get-go. So I would just say it’s an essential business overhead investment that you need to make and the beauty of it is, is it gives back time and time again for years and years to come when you get a sold contract in place from the beginning.
Sandra: Absolutely. I could not agree with you more! I think to a certain extent, it’s more important to have proper contracts and just be legally protected than it is to have the best camera gear that’s out there. You can learn how to use camera gear that’s a few years old to the best of its ability and still deliver an amazing product, but like you said, if your business is falling apart then that camera, and having the best gear on the market, doesn’t really mean anything. If you’re having to constantly put out fires and having people threaten legal action and things like that, that’s where your energy ends up being focused instead of doing things you actually love doing. There are just there’s so many reasons why making your business legally legit and having those contracts from the very beginning is so so important.
Paige: Yeah. I mean, if your photographer listening and you’re looking at that next shiny, like, 85 Mm 1.2 L Series lens K, and you’re like, I really need this. It’s going to up-level my, you know, portrait sessions. Okay. But what if you only actually took that lens out of the bag for very specific portrait sessions? And, you know, you’re still married to your 35 or 50, right? Or 24-70? Y’all know what I’m talking about here! We’re all photographers! I – you know, maybe you don’t use that for every session, but guess what? It cost you probably five times more than a contract, and your contract you use for every session because to book The Client, they have to sign the contract! So just think about it in terms of like, what you’re going to utilize most of our business overhead. What’s going to benefit you the most? Yes those things are great, right? It might up level your photography a little bit. It’s going to give you a little bit more bokeh and like that, that really yummy background. It’s going to be awesome! I love my 85! But at the end of the day, if I were deciding between that purchase and an upgraded, awesome contract, I would hands down, suggest you go with the contract, because you’re probably actually going to book better clients with your contract and then you can increase your pricing and boom – I’ve got you your 85mm in a couple of months.
Sandra: I was just going to say that I know for me when I started using more robust and professional contracts, it made me a more confident business owner in every situation. Whether it be at handling something with a client, a good, or bad situation, but also like you said, raising my prices having that just legal protection behind me and made me feel like I was totally protected and heading in the right direction.
Paige: Yeah, a little story for you guys here. It’s one of my favourites to tell. I once had someone who used our contract templates and they were a wedding photographer. It was like more of a high-end wedding. They were in a bid scenario with the big wedding planner that was doing this big wedding. It was, you know, a high-level person’s wedding and in their, you know, they have to send over contracts and planner in these people’s legal agents are reviewing contracts and they came back and told me that they won the bid because they had the most professional, robust contract where not only were they protected, but their clients were protected as well. So they booked like a $10,000- $15,000 wedding above the other, you know, colleagues that we’re submitting bids for this particular wedding because of their good contract. So I know there’s some misnomers out there in the industry that’s like, ‘oh long contracts are like off-putting to clients’ and that is Not the case. It is literally clearly the opposite. Clients are going to thank you for having a very easy to read contract that really covers every scenario possible and is also two-sided, right. It needs to protect you, I always say it’s your contract, so it should be protecting you a bit more. But if you have rights, role,s and responsibilities for your clients under the contract, too, there going to be like I want a book with this person, they know what they’re doing and you’re saying that standard right. Your reputation with working with them from the beginning, they’re going to be like ‘I expect this level of professionalism from this particular wedding vendor and I know I’m going to get it because they’re showing it to me from the beginning.’
Sandra: So after this after listening to this episode, what is one simple take away that wedding photographers could do tomorrow to make sure that their businesses are legally legit?
Paige: Okay, I’m going to have you do a little DIY contract audit with me. Kay? So write down these three things. The first thing I want you to do is get out your contract and like, print it out. Don’t just look at it on a screen K, do that for me, step one.
Step two – We’re going to read through our contract, kay?! We’re going to look for sentences or language that’s confusing. If it’s confusing to you, I can doubley guarantee it’s confusing to your clients, and clear that up, kay. Is there an easier way you can phrase that sentence? Take out a few words plain language in English, it doesn’t need- the more confusing a contract is, it’s not better, it’s WAY worse. So make it clear and precise and to the point and then number three, I want you to organize your contract a little bit better. So I want you to put the most important Clauses at the top and just you can rearrange things. It’s totally fine. Like the arrangement of contracts actually doesn’t really matter, except for when I’m telling you, right now. Important causes need to go towards the top because when we live in and online world and we’re sending contacts to people online, they are more… They’re, they’re looking at causes more in-depth at the beginning of a contract, and then they start scrolling more quickly to the end to sign. So I want you to have like your fee and retainer clause, your cancellation and rescheduling clauses, clauses related to your specific services and business policies – all ll near the top, k, those specific Clauses related to your business and then of course you’re going to get into like intellectual property and like boilerplate language clauses at the bottom.
Organize it for most important to like, what you expect in a contract. I don’t call them least important because they are still important Clauses at the bottom, but it’s like more expectant clauses at the bottom that your clients have seen many many, many times and they know what they, you know, entail at the bottom.
And then the last thing is, once you organize all of those, this is also in step 3. I want you to number your causes, in order sequentially. And then I want you to bold an underline all of the headings. This makes it really clear to your clients, if they need to go back to the contract and look at, okay, what happens if I need to voluntarily cancel? They can look for that clause heading and they know what your business policy is without having to, like, decipher through three pages of like, you know, 400 to 500 words per page. Like they don’t know where your business policy is if you haven’t organized it for them to easily understand. And it also allows you to easily point to a clause, like, well, you know, if you do want additional edits you can see clause 12 where you agreed to this as my additional editing fee for those additional revisions right after/during the post processing with photographer. So that’s what I would suggest. That is a really good like, step-by-step approach to be more legally Legit by the end of this podcast episode. I mean, that’s going to take you a little bit of time, give yourself an hour or two, but that’s my, my best suggestion moving forward. And you just going to head into next year, feeling way more protected and also knowledgeable about what your contract says, ‘cause you’ve actually read it!
Sandra: Ok, that was amazing!! I have officially added a contract audit to my to-do list for off-season. And if you were just listening to that homework that Paige gave you and you are thinking,my contracts need some HELP, you can take things one step further, make it even easier for yourself and head over to Paige’s shop because she has a sale coming up for Black Friday! Paige, I’m going to let you tell the listeners a little bit more about that.
Paige: Yeah, so I can just press the easy button for you and you don’t have to do any of that, which is nice! And you can purchase and like, uplevel your contract with us. So, over Black Friday week, we are having one of our biggest sales of the year. The entire contract job will be 40% off, and there’s no code needed. You can just go there and grab all of the legal goodies that you need to add to your legal tool kit. Again, if you have a Contract and you’re like ‘man, there’s a lot of things I’m missing in it.’ Now would be the time just to get it done for you, instead of you having to like copy and paste clauses into your existing contact. You can just have one that has all of these in there for you and it’s written by myself in my legal team here in the United States or a Canadian lawyer as well that we now have on the team. As well as I know, you are a very valuable affiliate for TLP, and so you guys, I do know that she is going to share her additional discount with you all and she’ll be offering that over our sale week as well. So it’s like a double win for you, you get discounts on the shop and then you can get an additional amount off your total purchase.
Sandra: Yeah, definitely. Make sure you check out the show notes for some links and hint-hint, there maaayyy even be an extra little discount waiting for you there that you can use during the sale! I’ll also be sharing all the things on Instagram and things like that as well. And, like Paige mentioned, they have a Canadian lawyer on the team, so it definitely make sure you pop into the shop and check out the Canadian templates and just get started on the right foot for 2023 as you head into your next busy season.
Paige: Yeah, we cannot wait to get you a legally legit you guys, and again, if you have any Questions related to, “Hey Paige, this is what I’m looking for” or you know, “I’ve had this scenario pop up,” I can point you in the right direction of a document you need or what contract you need, or what Clause you need, I am here to help you. So please feel free to reach out to me. You can do it on Instagram, you can do it through your email. We are here to help. That is what I am in this business for and want to do for you heading into, you know, the year that’s to come. I cannot wait to see what you do with your business.
Sandra: And there’s always people in your Facebook group as well that are always happy to recommend different Clauses and purchases in the shop and things like that. So that’s always another great option as well. I am all about online communities and I know some people are over Facebook, but I love a good Facebook community. So I’m always here to recommend that to you.
Paige: Yeah. I hope you guys join! Again, it’s The Legal Paige Community on Facebook, super simple. Type it into the search bar, you answer a couple questions, we just got to make sure you’re actually a business owner and then you can just sit in and social listen and, you know, see what people are asking and then when you have a question, you can pop it in there.
Sandra: Yeah, it’s so awesome. And speaking of social media, where else can everybody find you?
Ya, I’m The Legal Paige, P-A-I-G-E, it’s a play on words, that’s my business name on social media, Twitter, Instagram, we have a YouTube channel as well, and then thelegalpaige.com so it’s pretty easy to find me.
Sandra: Awesome – everyone, go give her a follow. Her content is packed with legal advice and the most relatable Reels around haha. Well thank you so much again for joining me, Paige. This was an amazing conversation. I am so excited for the listeners to go and make themselves more legally protected for their next wedding season!
Paige: Thanks guys.
Sandra: I was honestly taking notes during that whole interview because even though I use Paige’s templates for my contracts, I think it’s so important to thoroughly understand every clause – why it’s so important, what it all means, so I hope no matter what your contract situation is in your business, you found something to take away from today’s episode!
The Legal Paige’s annual Black Friday sale is kicking off on Monday where you’ll get 40% off her entire shop all week long – and, if you pop over to the Show Notes, you’ll find a little something extra to go along with it!
If you happen to catch this episode after the Black Friday sale has ended, get on Paige’s email list and join her Facebook community so you can stay up to date on future sales!
Before I go – next week I’ve got a special series coming to the podcast! The Local Vendor Series is a five-part series showcasing some of the top wedding vendors in the London, Ontario area. They joined me to talk about the importance of creating a ‘dream team’ environment with vendors on wedding day and how wedding photographers can serve our industry colleagues to strengthen those relationships. This was one of the first ideas I had when I started brainstorming for this podcast at the beginning of the year and I couldn’t be happier with how it call came together!
The first episode drops on November 21st!
(Outro Music)
Thanks so much for listening to Keeping It Candid: Wedding Photography Unfiltered with Sandra Henderson! You can find full show notes from today’s episode at simplysandrayvonne.ca/keepingitcandid. In the meantime – let’s connect! You can find me on Instagram @simplysandrayvonne, and on Facebook in the Wedding Photography Unfiltered community! If you’re loving this podcast, I’d be so honoured if you’d go ahead and hit that subscribe button and leave me a review!
Until next time!
Check out some of my favourite templates in the TLP shop!
Canadian Wedding Photography Contract
Canadian Second Shooter Contract
Canadian Adventure Elopement Contract
Canadian Rescheduling + Cancellation Bundle
**NOVEMBER 21ST – 28TH – THE LEGAL PAIGE’S ANNUAL BLACK FRIDAY SALE IS HAPPENING! GET 40% OFF THE ENTIRE SHOP! USE CODE SANDRA10 TO SAVE AN ADDITIONAL $10!**
About Paige
Paige is a lawyer, business consultant, photographer, and entrepreneur. Her company, The Legal Paige can help set you up for success as a business owner through contract templates and educational resources! It’s her mission to empower small business owners to feel confident and protected in their businesses.
Paige Griffith from The Legal Paige
Website | https://www.thelegalpaige.com/
IG | @thelegalpaige
YouTube | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZ6POiCTWgnStvuVdUY_XZg
More of our favourite podcast episodes:
Episode 13 – The Secret To A Great Client Experience with Katelyn Workman
(Intro Music)
Welcome to Keeping it Candid – Wedding Photography Unfiltered for photographers who want to keep it real. I’m your host, Sandra Henderson, international wedding and family photographer and educator with a Marie Kondo-style approach to running a business – you know, keeping things simple and getting rid of anything that doesn’t bring you joy!
More importantly, I’m a strong enneagram 3w2 who is obsessed with tacos, and my love for travelling plus navigating chronic illness life are just two of the many things that drive my passion for all things systems, workflows, and beating burnout as a business owner.
Join me twice a month for a candid, behind-the-scenes look at what it’s really like working as a wedding photographer – where I’ll give you actionable steps to take your business to the next level. Absolutely no fluff here, friends! So grab your favourite notebook and pen, and let’s dive into this week’s episode.
Hey friends! Welcome back to another episode of keeping it candid! Depending on when you listen to this episode, it may have been Halloween last night – I dressed up like my *favourite* Disney character – Stitch from Lilo + Stitch! I was in a 6ft tall inflatable costume and it was seriously too much fun! The kids in my neighbourhood were so excited to give me high fives and hugs. I think it’s going to have to become an annual trick-or-treat tradition!
And now that it’s all over, it means it’s officially November and honestly, I don’t know how that happened. Wasn’t wedding season just getting started?!
If you’re anything like me, the end of the year brings a LOT of reflection about the good, the bad, and the ugly during busy season, what I loved, what changes I need to make, and how I can keep showing up to serve my clients while also setting boundaries to keep me happy and healthy – and one thing that’s really top-of-mind for me right now is Client Experience.
That’s why I’m SO excited for today’s guest!
My friend Katelyn Workman, a wedding photographer and educator based in the Virginia area, joined me to talk all about how creating a great client experience means more than just showing up and taking great photos. We talked about how important it is to build relationships with our clients, ways to add a little bit of fun throughout your time with them, and the kind of impact it has on your business in the long run.
Katelyn shared some amazing insight and ideas, so if you don’t already have your notebook and pen ready, hit pause and grab them because you’re not going to want to miss a thing!
Sandra: Thank you so much for joining, I’m so excited to have you on the podcast today, and it’s great to get a chance to chat with you outside of when we first met! Um, for everybody that doesn’t know, we were both at The Graceful Gathering conference back in June. It was the first chance that we had to meet, and you were lovely. You did the, like, I absolutely loved your, um, talk and all the tips that you gave for posing were absolutely amazing. So I’m so excited to have you here.
Katelyn: Thank you! I’m excited to be here!
Sandra: Oh, good. I’m so glad. Well, before we get started, why don’t you give us a little bit of information about who you are, what you do, and um, where we can find you online?
Katelyn: Sure. I am Katelyn Workman. Um, I live right on the border of Bluefield, West Virginia and Virginia. It’s like this tiny town, I say it’s kind of like Stars Hollow, um, no one’s ever heard of it! But um, yeah, so I have a two year old and then I have a 10 year old that we adopted through foster care, um, and she’s kind of why I started my business as a wedding photographer was to have more time with her. And, um, yeah, weddings are what I love so I was really excited to just get to share with you guys, um, some things that we do and some things that we love about, um, serving our clients!
Sandra: That’s awesome. I love that so much! I love hearing different, um, like family stories. Being a stepmom myself, I love talking to other step moms and adoptive moms and foster moms and like, just seeing how all the different family dynamics come together. It’s just so nice to see.
Katelyn: Yes! Well, I love sharing because I didn’t plan to be a wedding photographer, and sometimes I envy people who built their businesses before they had kids or who don’t have kids. But the truth is that I wouldn’t have a business if it weren’t for her. I bought – my husband bought my camera for me to take pictures of her, so that’s kind of how everything started.
Sandra: Oh, that’s so sweet. I love that. Um, so you mentioned that that was the reason why you started your business and what kind of like brought you to the point where you want to serve and create a great experience for your clients, and I’m so excited to dive into this topic of client experience more with you! Um, why do you think it’s so important to not just create (stammer) a great experience for your clients, but to also be super intentional about the things that you are doing with them?
Katelyn: Yes. Okay. So first of all, I have to throw this disclaimer out there that I don’t love taking pictures. That’s not what I’m super passionate about. It is connecting with our clients. Like I love people and I love getting to serve our couples, and so, that’s why, that’s why I love creating a great experience! But I think the number one reason is for your clients, obviously, because they deserve that. They deserve a great experience. Um, as wedding photographers, we have like such an important job because how we treat them on their wedding day and throughout their whole experience, like how they feel on their wedding day, they’re going to remember that when they look back at their pictures.
I remember that my wedding photographer was late! And um, she got there and I just felt super awkward. And we did a first look, and I hadn’t communicated with her at all beforehand. We didn’t do an engagement session, which was my fault, but we hadn’t communicated with her, didn’t feel comfortable with her, and during our first look, I just felt super awkward because I didn’t know like what to do or what to expect. And I just remember feeling stressed, and like when I look back at those particular pictures of our first look, I’m like, I know that we were awkward. We felt awkward. Um, and so I think your clients deserve to have an amazing experience and we’re asking them to invest a lot in us. So I think that as wedding photographers, we need to do a lot more than just show up and take their pictures and leave.
Sandra: I totally agree.
Katelyn: Yes. Um, and also trust is just so important. Like, I didn’t trust my photographer because I didn’t really know her. Um, and so if you start from the very, very beginning of their experience… So I think that your client experience starts from the minute that they inquire, really from the minute that they look at your website. They should feel welcome there. And, um, they should feel like it’s easy to talk to you from the very beginning, and you should be very intentional with how you communicate with them from the very, that very first step.
Um, and as you do that, you’re building their trust so that when you get to the wedding day, they already trust you and everything else. If there’s problems, nothing is stressful because you’ve already created that intentional client experience from the beginning.
Sandra: Yes, that’s so important ‘cause you and I both know anything can happen on a wedding day. There’s tons of things that are expected, tons of things that are unexpected. So it’s so important to be able to continue serving a great experience no matter what comes your way on the wedding day.
Katelyn: Yes, exactly. So I think that’s the first reason, is just your clients. They deserve that, obviously.
Sandra: Mh-mmm.
Katelyn: And then second, um, your business deserves that. Um, if you have a terrible experience, you’re not gonna have a business for very long. Um, I think that you need to stand out. It seems like everywhere you turn around there’s another wedding photographer. And so if you want to have a thriving business, then you need to have a reason for people to hire you, to choose you. And so that comes from your client experience. You wanna create connections with your couples so that when their friends are getting married, they say, “you have to have Katelyn Workman!” You know, you have to have this experience that I had. And just showing up and taking pictures and leaving is not going to create that, like, raving fan that you need to grow your business.
Um, I think that you’re, that word of mouth is your greatest tool, and having a great reputation is the most important part of growing your business and having a great client experience is the best way to do that, I think.
Sandra: Yes, I totally agree with you! In all honesty, I learned that lesso- lesson a little bit the hard way in earlier years of my business where I was just so burnt out because I was overworking myself and my priority was not in creating a great client experience, but just taking on as much business as I could.
And it ended up with, like, me returning galleries late and missing, you know, if someone submitted an order for an album or print, like missing something that was supposed to be included. All these little things that kind of just, like, cascaded, and it wasn’t the experience that I wanted my clients to have. It wasn’t the service that I wanted my business to be delivering, and it really just totally reframed my perspective on what the important part is.
And you had said earlier that your passion isn’t even necessarily in taking the photos, but in making, like making connections and making sure people are having a great experience. And I resonate with that so much cause I really do think that is such a key to the longevity of our businesses.
Katelyn: Yes, it all works together so well, ou know! If you serve your clients well, then they’ll bring more people to you just like them, and then you serve those people well and it’s just kind of a cycle. And I think that’s what causes businesses to last. I think if you’re doing what you were talking about and you’re trying to do way too much, you’re not serving them well and you’re not serving yourself well, so your business is not gonna last.
Sandra: Exactly. It definitely all comes full circle that if you are giving that great client experience and you’re getting great feedback, you’re feeling confident, you’re excited, and then you’re able to just like keep going. And the same goes for the negative side of that too. So I personally am much happier and my clients are much happier now that we’re focusing on the more positive side of that cycle.
Katelyn: Yes haha
Sandra: Um, what kind of impact do you think making this intentional client experience has made on your business?
Katelyn: I think that – I know that it is why I have a business. Um, I wouldn’t have clients referring their friends to me if I didn’t have this very intentional client experience, and I don’t think that I would be fulfilled. Like I said, I, I do love being a photographer, but if I was just taking their pictures and didn’t even really know their names or know anything about them, I just don’t think I would be fulfilled. Um, I am super extroverted. I’m a seven on the Enneagram if you guys know about that, and I just love people, and so it’s just so much more fulfilling to me that I have real connections. You know, I have brides who, I took their pictures three years ago and they’re like sending me their baby pictures, you know? Um, or like coming back for family pictures and, you know, coming back to our cookout at our house and things like that. And so I just think that… Um, not only is it growing my business in that way, but it is fulfilling me as a person.
Sandra: Yeah. That’s so amazing. I love that. Was there anything unexpected, that kind of like surprised you along the way as you started perfecting your client experience?
Katelyn: Yes. So I have noticed recently, in paying attention to, um, just conversations that I’m having with other photographers, is a lot of times I’m hearing like of these bad experiences and you know, well, what did you do if you had a difficult groom? Or, what would you do in this situation? Or, like, people just telling horror stories and I don’t have those. Um, I had one negative experience in the very beginning, um, before I did all of these things, right. Um, but since I have been so intentional with marketing to the right clients and just serving them well from the very beginning to the end, I just don’t have bad experiences because I’m making them feel comfortable, so I don’t have those “bad grooms” because they feel great and they’re having fun. So they’ll do whatever I ask them to because they trust me. Um, and I just think that there’s that mutual respect and trust that, um, just creates a, a great experience for both of us.
Sandra: Yeah, absolutely. That’s so important to have that mutual respect. It goes along to say that, like that client experience, it does have to do with respecting our clients, their time, the money that they’re spending and things like that, but it really does go both ways. And I’m always about looking for like, things that are mutually beneficial. It’s, it, it makes it a lot easier to like keep up with them and make them a part of your system when you’re getting something and not just constantly pouring out of yourself.
Katelyn: Yes, it all works together.
Sandra: Yeah, for sure. Um, so what are some of the – your favourite parts of the experience that you’ve created for your clients? Are there any like specific things that you get really excited about once you’ve booked them throughout your time together?
Katelyn: Um, gifting haha because my love language is gifts. Um..
Sandra: Me too!
Katelyn: And so you don’t have. That doesn’t, it’s not true for everyone. Um, I think you have to look at like who you are as a person and how you can serve them well.
But I love giving gifts and so we give gifts throughout the whole process and I keep adding more things haha and I maybe don’t need to do all that I do. Um, but even things like, I’ll send out a little, I just started eating this this year where I send out a little self care box like a month before the wedding to the bride and it just has like little, like, bath bombs and things like that because I was noticing I did a lot in the beginning and then a lot, you know, during the wedding day, but I didn’t have like a connection point kind of in between their engagement session and their wedding so I started sending that just to kind of remind them like, I’m here and I love you and I’m taking care of you and you deserve a little bit of a break. Um, so I love doing that. And then I have just started doing album reveals in my house! And I love hosting.
We have a very tiny house that is a hundred years old haha lots of character, so it’s nothing fancy, but I love just how intimate that is to just like, have them in my house and, like, make them a charcuterie board and like really get to be the, be with them through that. Um, and we do have a lot of couples that travel, so if they are not able to come in, then I’ll send them a, like a charcuterie in a box type thing for them to still have a special moment when they view their pictures for the first time in their house. Because I had found that I was doing all of these things that were so intentional, and then after the wedding day, I would send a link in an email that they might get while they’re like, at targets scrolling through!
So now I tell them exactly when it’s gonna be and I send them that little gift, or I have them over that way that they, they get to still have an experience when they see their pictures too.
Sandra: I love that so much. That’s so sweet to have them over and like make a little charcuterie board and things like that. I love that.
Katelyn: Yeah! And it’s the same, it’s like so fulfilling for both because you get to see that they love their pictures, you know? Cause they get busy. They may not remember to say like, Oh I loved this one, or whatever. But you get to see like them crying at their pictures and it’s so special.
Sandra: Oh, I love that because yeah, I’m not sure if you feel this way as well, but if I send out a gallery and I don’t hear back, they could love their photos, but I instantly assume that they hate them.
Katelyn: You think they hate every single one!
Sandra: Yeah, exactly! Like that must be the only reason why they didn’t reply.
Katelyn: Right.
Sandra: Um, and you mentioned that you do a cookout – I would love to hear more about that!
Katelyn: Yes. Okay, so we are not very consistent with it haha ‘cause um, it’s been covid in the past two years and like last year we had to cancel and things like that. Um, but it’s just, we like have them come over to our house and hang out and it’s very casual, very laid back, but it’s just a chance for them to come and hang out and like our kids are there, and, um, just because our couples really do feel like family by the end of the experience and so we love to just continue creating those connection points.
Sandra: Oh, that’s so nice. That must be so much fun to get a chance to reconnect with people.
Katelyn: Yes, and it’s fun too because like a lot of our clients know each other because, you know, we’ve done sisters weddings and friends weddings and all that, so yeah, it’s really fun.
Sandra: Oh, that’s so awesome! All right, so I’ve got – I saved a big question for the last one. Um, but, would you say that you have any advice for newer photographers in the industry, or even photographers who are just looking to up-level their client experience, on like, where is the best place to get started?
Katelyn: Yes, this is a great question. I like to have a practical application when you listen to a podcast because I think sometimes when I’m listening, I listen to people ramble and then I’m like, Okay, well what do I do? Um, so here’s your practical tip. If you haven’t been listening this whole time, um, I think you need to make just a, a workflow, make a checklist. Um, so I have one that we can include in the show notes, I think!
Sandra: absolutely!
(**CLICK HERE TO GRAB KATELYN’S FREEBIE!**)
Katelyn: Yes. Okay. It’s just my wedding workflow. Um, just so you guys can kind of see an example, and this starts with, like, respond to inquiry and goes all the way down to like send an anniversary card and has every single step in between. Um, and I have found that this helps because there are so many little steps. If you don’t have your workflow like written out as a checklist for every couple, um, then you can forget things and you know, I was sometimes forgetting to send their welcome box or I was sometimes forgetting to, um, you know, send a follow up email or whatever.
Um, so I think just even if you don’t use mine, just create a very simple workflow that you can… that’s just manageable for every couple. Um, so if you don’t think that you have time to send a gift every single month, don’t put that on your workflow. But just start with something small. Like, you know what, I love – words of affirmation is my love language, so I would love to write a sweet note to my couples a month before their wedding. Um, so put that on your workflow. But just make a simple checklist that you can really follow through with every couple.
Sandra: That’s so, so great and yes, I will definitely make sure to include the link to your download so if you are listening and you wanna grab that, make sure you head over to my website and hit the show notes so that you can grab a copy because it will definitely be amazing if the, uh, talk that I saw Katelyn give at The Graceful Gathering is any like, I don’t know what the word is I’m looking for… Notion, of how it’s going to be, it’s gonna be amazing!
Katelyn: Oh, you’re so sweet!
Sandra: Awesome. Well, before we wrap things up, do you have any final thoughts that you’d like to mention or anything that you have coming up that you would love to share about?
Katelyn: Um, Yes, I have something really exciting. Um, since this is a podcast for wedding photographers, I would love to share it, um, that I am hosting a retreat, um, in March! So if you guys want details, um, all of my information will be linked. Um, or you can just go to my website, katelynworkmanphotography.com, and there’s like a little popup you can put, um, to be on my email list.
But – I’m really excited because one of the things that I love about events is just creating connections with other business owners and other photographers. I think that, um, client experience is a great way to sustain your business, but so is having connections with people because we can’t do it alone. And so that’s the whole part behind the retreat is just a chance to come together. It’s gonna be really intimate and encourage each other and have accountability, and it’s gonna be amazing! So yes, if you guys want information on that, just go to the website and thank you for letting me share about!
(**CLICK HERE TO FIND OUT MORE ABOUT THE CREATE RETREAT!**)
Sandra: Oh, of course. Yes, guys. Definitely go and check that out. I love a good like conference and retreat. The, the value that you get out of building community and just being in the same space with people who just get it is so, so invaluable and something that I wish that I had taken advantage of sooner in my business, but better late than never and I take it for like everything that it’s worth now!
Katelyn: Yes, I agree. I see the people who are not lasting in their businesses are people who work alone, um, because they get, you just get burned out and it, you can’t do everything by yourself.
Sandra: Yeah. It’s so, so true. Awesome. Well, I cannot wait to see how this retreat grows, I’m so excited for you and thank you so much again for being here! This was absolutely amazing and we’ll definitely have to have you back on the podcast in the future.
Katelyn: Yeah. Thanks so much.
Ok – can we talk about how great that interview was? I love that Katelyn is so invested in building relationships with her clients that continue beyond the actual taking of photos. How fun does her annual cookout sound?! I’m already married but I may need to find a way to become a KWP bride so I can score an invite for the next one!
I’ve been wanting to plan a big gathering for my clients for a couple of years now but thanks to the pandemic, that plan has been put on hold. Maybe next year though?! It’s my ten-year business anniversary so I’m thinking it might be perfect way to celebrate!
I also couldn’t agree more with Katelyn when she talked about how your client’s experience isn’t just about the time they’re directly interacting with you. Client experience really starts from the second someone lands on your website and has the ability to continue indefinitely into the future.
One thing that goes a long way in the very beginning of your client experience that I think gets overlooked more often than not is taking the time to make sure your text you’re including can actually be read.
If you are using a lot of script and cursive fonts, or if you’re using small lettering, it can be really difficult for so many people to read. I wear glasses, but my eyesight is really not that bad. I can see and read without my glasses on. But still, I can’t tell you how often I land on a website or even see a social media post where I have to strain to read what’s written. It’s recommended that you use at least a 16pt font when you’re including text online. It might seem large to you, the majority of us have grown up using software where the standard default size is an 11 or 12pt font, so ya, at first, it is going to seem big in comparison. But as always, we have to remember, there are all different types of people in the world and what might seem large to you may be small in comparison to someone with limited vision or who someone who is neurodivergent.
Building an inclusive business is SO important, and that goes beyond making sure the LGBTQ and BIPOC communities are represented. Which, don’t get me wrong, is super important. But a truly inclusive business considers all different types of people, which means making sure people of all abilities are able to access your services as well.
If you’re like me and already building a to-do list of things to work on during off-season, I encourage you to do a deep dive into your website and see what tweaks you can make to ensure every potential client feels welcome and has a great experience before they even have a chance to connect with you.
Then, have a little fun with it, and if it feels authentic to you, start incorporating some things like gifts and gatherings into your client’s experience along the way. Start building relationships with your clients so they start to feel more like friends, and you’ll definitely start to see a shift in how happy they are and how often they refer their own friends and family your way too!
(Outro Music)
Thanks so much for listening to Keeping It Candid: Wedding Photography Unfiltered with Sandra Henderson! You can find full show notes from today’s episode at simplysandrayvonne.ca/keepingitcandid. In the meantime – let’s connect! You can find me on Instagram @simplysandrayvonne, and on Facebook in the Wedding Photography Unfiltered community! If you’re loving this podcast, I’d be so honoured if you’d go ahead and hit that subscribe button and leave me a review!
Until next time!
Katelyn Workman Photography
Website | www.katelynworkmanphotography.com
IG | @katelynworkmanphotography
TikTok | @katelyneworkman
Create Retreat | https://katelynworkmanphotography.com/createretreat
Freebie | How To Book More Clients For Free https://katelynworkmanphotography.com/bookmoreclients
About Katelyn
Katelyn is a wedding photographer and educator from a small town on the border of West Virginia and Virginia! She started taking pictures of her foster daughter just for fun, and is now a full-time wedding photographer, educator, and – she adopted her daughter! Don’t forget to check out the Create Retreat, coming this spring!
(Intro Music)
Welcome to Keeping it Candid – Wedding Photography Unfiltered for photographers who want to keep it real. I’m your host, Sandra Henderson, international wedding and family photographer and educator with a Marie Kondo-style approach to running a business – you know, keeping things simple and getting rid of anything that doesn’t bring you joy!
More importantly, I’m a strong enneagram 3w2 who is obsessed with tacos, and my love for travelling plus navigating chronic illness life are just two of the many things that drive my passion for all things systems, workflows, and beating burnout as a business owner.
Join me twice a month for a candid, behind-the-scenes look at what it’s really like working as a wedding photographer – where I’ll give you actionable steps to take your business to the next level. Absolutely no fluff here, friends! So grab your favourite notebook and pen, and let’s dive into this week’s episode.
(Episode 011)
You know that saying, “give 110%”? Throughout my whole childhood – and I know all of my fellow millennials listening can relate to this – we were always told, give 110%. It was supposed to be a catchy way to motivate you to go above and beyond what was expected of you. It’s a mindset that’s really integrated into our thought processes as business owners, too. But if you ask me, I wholeheartedly believe it shouldn’t be. Like, let’s just cancel that saying right here and now.
In order to give 110% you can’t really have boundaries, you have to make everyone else a priority before yourself, and more often than not you’re left feeling depleted in the end. For today’s episode, I dove into this idea more in-depth with my friend Cindy from Harborview Studios.
Cindy is a luxury wedding videographer and half of the husband-and-wife team behind Harborview Studios. They’ve have been in the wedding industry serving couples since 2006, and are known for creating timeless, colourful, vibrant wedding films for couples getting married on Cape Cod, Martha’s Vineyard, Nantucket, and the New England area.
With so much experience in the wedding industry, Cindy has seen it all – not just at weddings, but also behind the scenes as a business owner. She’s experienced burnout herself and has had to learn how to set boundaries and reframe her mentality around her goals and what success looks like for her. It’s what’s contributed to making her so passionate about small business owners, especially those in the wedding industry, making their mental health a priority.
So let’s dive into this interview, shall we?!
(Interview)
Sandra: Welcome, and thank you so much, Cindy, for joining me on the podcast today! I’m so, so excited for this interview and this topic. We’ve had a chance to talk offline a little bit about why we’re so passionate about this. So I’m so excited to dive in, but before we do that, I would love if you could just introduce yourself real quick and tell us a little bit about yourself.
Cindy: Thank you so much for having me, Sandra. It’s so great to be here and we have! We’ve talked about this, I don’t wanna say at length, but a decent amount. Um, but to introduce myself really fast, um, I’m Cindy I’m co-owner with my husband of a videography company, a wedding videography company, um, on Cape Cod. Um, we film, uh, premium and luxury weddings, uh, on the Northeast and we are big, big advocates of mental health and awareness! So, um, and that’s for us and our couples. So we work really hard to, um, make a balance for everybody in our entire experience.
Sandra: I love that, that’s so important. And I love that you said that you do this for not just yourselves, but also for your clients as well, because there’s really like two such huge parts of how those come together so I think it’s so important to have a balance between the two.
Cindy: It is. And planning a wedding is like a, a part-time job for a good year, year and a half. And I know, um, a lot of our couples are – I don’t wanna say overachievers, but they’re certainly achieving a lot. You know, they’re getting their graduate degrees, they’re buying their first house. They’re changing their entire marital status planning, the world’s biggest party. Um, and usually one other gigantic thing at the same time and sometimes competing in, in athletics, it’s it astounds me how much they’re accomplishing and it’s really important to help them keep a level head as well. And I know how stressful it can be. And then it’s stressful for us to help balance all that at the same time.
Sandra: Ya, absolutely. And the more relaxed our clients are, the easier it becomes for us, so I think it’s so important to put a little bit of emphasis there, too.
Cindy: Exactly, exactly.
Sandra: Remind me, how long have you been in business for now?
Cindy: We’ve been in business for 16 years.
Sandra: Oh, that’s amazing!
Cindy: My husband has been filming, uh, far longer than that. And I mean, honestly, I don’t even know if 16 years is accurate, but we’ve lived on Cape Cod for 16 years. We’ve been filming since we’ve gotten here. Um, whether or not Harborview, like it’s just, my brain is so foggy. It’s this is August brain for weddings right now.
Sandra: I can totally relate!
Cindy: Um, but uh, Sean’s been filming since, I dunno, at least 20 years, so we’ve been at this for a good, good long time.
Sandra: Yeah, absolutely. And in all that time, you guys must have gone through so many seasons in your business where it’s been busier and a little slower… Hopefully never, again, as slow as it was over the last couple of years! Um, but what has your experience with that been like when it comes to trying to navigate things like burnout.
Cindy: Oh, it is it’s, it’s really, it’s, it’s gone, it’s run the gamut. Um, a lot of the burnout has to do with, um… Well, I think for the wedding for wedding professionals, a lot of it is got to do with, uh, predictions and control. We, we have a very varied income and when that income isn’t coming in, we can freak out. And once we’re freaking out that can lead to bad choices, uh, for our businesses like panic bookings, and then some, you know, and then we, we panic on one end of the year. And then when we have to fulfill those panic bookings, we’re panicking, ’em on the other, and then we have to do the deliverables and then this, we just have this, um, you know, this neverending cycle until we can just really just stop and fix the problem. So, um, There’s been, uh, plenty of opportunity for Sean and I just to go through that and, uh, and, and try to make some fail-safes and, and adjust and correct. And it’s always a, it’s a never ending… You can never… It’s never truly fixed. I don’t wanna say fixed. It’s not the right word, but it’s never truly calm, I guess, is where you’re always – there’s always something you’re doing to continue to, uh, improve, uh, for your own sake. And, uh, because you’re always going through your own season of life, your business go through seasons, your, um, your life goes through seasons. Sometimes they intersect and sometimes they create a perfect storm. There’s all sorts of parts of life. And sometimes you think that you’re the only one that this is happening to. So it’s really helpful to know that this has happened to other people. And hearing that as often as possible, I feel is really important.
Sandra: Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. In the beginning of what you were saying, I feel like you were describing like 2017/2018 Sandra, because that’s totally what my business was all about. Taking in all of the bookings, a lot of panic bookings, trying to make up for times when I was not as busy and things like that, and it ended in just misery and a lot of tears on the couch and a lot of unhappy clients. And since I did exactly what you said, like just push pause, and kind of stop and gain some perspectives, slow down and figure out what aspects of the business really are as important as I think they are and what aspects are not, and you know, that I’m investing too much of my emotions into… When you start giving yourself some perspective on all of that, it becomes a lot easier to focus on yourself, but also on your clients and make sure that you are not having as much of a fluctuation between those highs and lows, because like you said, so many things can come our way. It’s hard to really predict, and when you focus on making those predictions and thinking like, “oh, well, you know, the last two years, it was really, like really busy this time for bookings and now it’s really quiet, what am I doing wrong?” Like, you get, it’s so easy to get lost in those things, and so taking that step to just like gain perspective so that you are better prepared to navigate around that I think is so important.
Cindy: Right. And I think one of the things that’s really important too, is to actually keep accurate records of when the busy times are because, you know, minds aren’t the best at accurately keeping memories intact.
Sandra: Yes.
Cindy: Uh, without keeping it actually written down somewhere that you can refer back to because your, your brain can think, oh, Q2 is always when we have all our bookings, but it might have actually been quarter three. Um, and that’s certainly something that I have gone through. Um, I think it was actually before 2020, before the pandemic, when I started to say, I’m like, “you know what, I’m writing down every month, you know, how many inquiries?” So if you don’t have a CRM that keeps it track of this for you, or you find that your CRM isn’t entirely accurate – (cough) Honeybook, but, um…
Sandra: Yes, I am a huge Honeybook fan too so I will second that!
Cindy: But it’s not always as accurate as you might need it to be.
Sandra: Yes. So true.
Cindy: It can be a little, um, overarching. But, so for accurate reporting, uh, like out for the inquiries that come in and the sales that you’re doing, whether it’s a full job or if it’s just like a one-off invoice for extra hours, like if you can just separate that out somewhere in a spreadsheet or Word or wherever you like to go back to for information, that’s really helpful to know why your sales were higher in a particular month because you might have had a coup lot of couples who upgraded or maybe, um, I know that for us, you know, miraculously, it looked like a quarter two was really great in sales because we had a lot of clients who just didn’t book enough time a year before, and they had to add two extra hours because their, you know, their timelines got screwy. And so we made a lot more money in, you know, June and July. Yeah. And, um, no, it doesn’t matter anyways. Ya.
Sandra: Ya, I was just gonna do the math on my fingers to fig- finger… Wow. Fingers to figure it out! But I know what you’re trying to say for sure.
Cindy: And, um, and, and so it’s just. You just wanna be able to look back and accurately be able to say, oh, this was my busy time. It also really helps for when you might want to raise your rates, uh, to find out like, “oh, I tried raising my rates in quarter two. Oh. It just turns out people don’t really book in quarter two.” So and so, you know, it helps with the whole panic of when I should and shouldn’t do things.
Sandra: Yeah, absolutely.
Cindy: It’s a totally different topic for a totally different time, but, you know, I know it’s part of that whole mental health thing. Um, and that’s one of the biggest things that we used to, I used to, cause I took it over from Sean so Sean doesn’t really stress over anything anymore! But, um, mostly, uh, you know, it’s like, there’s a few key things that well stress about, and one of them is, is like, if you want to raise your rates, you know, why, why isn’t it successful? So then you fall back on it and, uh, and then you get into this whole despair cycle of why isn’t it happening? Why is it happening for everyone else? Why isn’t it happening for me? And that you could just turn out to be trying to raise it in the wrong time of year. Um, and so if you just keep records and things like that… I’m going on about this way too long!
Sandra: No, I, I love it! I think it’s so important. I also love spreadsheets. I, I nerd out a lot about a lot of things behind the scenes, Cindy and I were joking before I started recording about how I’m a huge weather nerd, and we could talk about this forever. Um, but, when it comes to spreadsheets and just like keeping track of all of the data that it goes along with running your business. I think it really does contribute to the headspace of things that are successful and not successful, and how you feel about your business overall. Um, I used to do bridal shows a couple times every year, and I thought that there was no way I could ever, ever not do a bridal show. Like it just seemed like the craziest thing. That’s easy access to thousands of brides or thousands of couples. How could I ever not do this? And then one day I decided to look at my spreadsheets and actually figure out – because I keep track of all the inquiries that are coming in, um, and where they’re coming from. I realized when I took a look at the numbers that I wasn’t generating any income from these bridal shows, I was actually losing money because it was costing me hundreds to thousands of dollars every time I wanted to participate in one, and I wasn’t getting any bookings, all the bookings that I was getting were coming from other places. And so I went from stressing about like, why am I not booking? And all these other people seem to be booking. When I then realize looking at my numbers, I am booking. I’m just not booking from the bridal show. So that means that I will be completely successful to just stop doing the bridal shows and keep that money in my pocket instead.
Cindy: Right. Exactly. And instantly you have an income boost because you just, it’s just not hemorrhaging from going to bridal shows.
Sandra: Ya, exactly. I was walking by a trade booth over the weekend at, just at like a totally different event, and somebody started talking to us and they were super friendly, but as we walked away, I was just like, I don’t miss doing this at all. I’m so glad that that’s not on my plate anymore!
Cindy: I know. And it’s tough for a lot of us, because a lot of us are introverts and we don’t like selling and that’s not only selling, but it’s cold selling and it’s selling face to face. So it can be really, really hard. So I don’t miss it either. (Laughs) I don’t miss it at all.
Sandra: Yeah. It’s so, so true. Um, so speaking of being in the midst of wedding season that we touched on a little bit, what do you think are some of the best ways to set boundaries in order to just maintain your mental health and your energy as you’re going forward throughout the year?
Cindy: That’s a really, really, really good question. I think it’s gonna be different for everybody because everybody has different energy and everybody has different. Things that they’re gonna need to protect. So for example, um, for me and Sean, we’re, we’re both introverts, I’m slightly more extroverted than he is. Um, but we both recharge our energy by being home and not scheduling a lot of events. So we discovered that, um, we had to, we can’t do, uh, three weddings a weekend anymore. We can’t do Friday, Saturday, Sunday. We just can’t. It is… It’s absolutely killer. Um, so we made sure never to block any, uh, or to, to block out a third day, every single time. And it just so happened that this year, most of our weekends were single weddings, and now we don’t wanna do double bookings anymore. So in order to do that, we had to look at how much money we wanna make a year and we had to raise our rates. And then now we have to, like, I don’t mind working multiple days per weekend, I just would prefer to work multiple days with the same couple versus a brand new couple every day. So that’s where a lot of that extra energy comes from. So it’s just like, if you’re doing a rehearsal dinner on Friday and then a wedding, and then, you know, a brunch, it’s totally different energy versus a wedding on Friday, a wedding on Saturday, a wedding on Sunday. And you might not make the same amount of money, but you might make enough to make that switch worth it. So there’s that. So that’s a really big one.
Um, another one is to realize that you do need time off during the wedding season. Um, so make sure that you, your weekends, aren’t going to be your weekend anymore, and it might be completely impractical to take two days off a week, so make sure, but make sure you make you take one day off. Where you do no work, no calls, no emails, put up a vacation responder and say, I will return all your calls on Tuesday or whatever. And another thing that will do is, um… And I was terrified to do it! Um, we often so a lot. A lot of vendors will do final consultations. So photographer, videographer, um, planners, uh, will do final consult- final consultations. One of our weaknesses was doing them too early or too far away from the wedding because we know our clients are stressed out before the wedding, and everybody’s saying like, you gotta do it 14 days, three weeks before the wedding. I can’t remember that many people that far in advance! (laughs) So I, I really hesitated to do it. We now do it the week of the wedding and, um, everybody, I, we were just, we were just absolutely petrified to do it because we know there’s a lot of stress for our couples that week. And on top of it for video, we are that vendor that often doesn’t get booked because people perceive that we’re going to stress them out. Um, so it was a, it was a big decision. And what we had to do is we had to explain why we’re doing it the week of the wedding. You know, we made it a benefit for our couple as much as it was a benefit for them. And I will not let a future couple, any other couple that isn’t getting married that weekend, I will not have a call with. I’m not having a final consultation, we, anytime before the week before your wedding, I can’t remember your wedding. It is my limitation. I know it. And I can’t fix it. There’s nothing I can do about that. And it is not, it’s just how I’m built, so instead of beating myself up, I just have to work around it. So, um, no, one’s complained, not a single person has complained. And if they’ve complained that they haven’t complained to me, it hasn’t affected reviews, it hasn’t affected anything. So, um, whatever it is that you, that you’re stressing out about changing, because you think a couple might freak out about – you are not going to know unless you try it!
And one of the things that, um, I’ve learned in the past, because we’ve had some really precarious years outside of the pandemic, um, just due to not really knowing who our couples were or what our goals were, and, um, is just, is letting go of this idea of what you want, ‘cause it might be like an old goal, and just being okay with what might come because it actually might be, and chances are, will probably be better than what you were holding onto, um, because when you’re holding on so tight, you’re holding on with a death grip, you’re not giving that room for growth and that room for like… You can’t relax when you’re desperately white-knuckling it through, um, and, and just being like, I’ll relax in like December and January and, and February. And that is terrible strategy because if you have a year like 2021, we couldn’t relax because we bottlenecked so often. We had so many clients, we bottlenecked in so many places. We didn’t have any time off. Like we didn’t have any months. We edited through 2022 into the start of the 2022 season. So we didn’t have any of that nice, juicy, nothing time. We didn’t have that. So don’t rely on that. So make sure you schedule that out.
Um, and also another thing that we’ve done is, we’ve taken a week in our, in our summer and just protected it. Be like, nope, nobody gets it, but nobody is booking this week and it hurts to turn it away. I’m not gonna lie. It hurts! And there’s so many times you’re tempted to just take the money, ‘cause it is… I don’t, there isn’t a single vendor I know who doesn’t need the money for one reason or another. You might have plenty of, you know, money in the bank and you could have plenty of cushion, but there isn’t anybody I know that doesn’t see a booking and think “I can do something with the money that would be coming in with that.” You know, it’s really tempting to just go ahead and be like, I, I can just, I’ll just do it. It’ll be fine. But if you don’t protect the things that are important to you, compromising that time is… It’s always gonna eat away. Time is the only thing that you can’t replace. You can always make more money. You can always buy a different house, get a different car. That stuff you can always, you can always get that, but you cannot make more time. There is nothing you can do to make more time. So that time, time is the most valuable resource you can possibly have for yourself. So you have to prioritize it. Um, and I think one of the things that we have talked about is, uh, is giving clients 110%…
Sandra: Ya!
Cindy: That mentality of, and it’s, it’s one of those “super service” mentalitie. “I’m gonna give 110%!” And I’m… I’m I almost guarantee you that somebody kind of came up with that as kind of like, just kinda like a concept. Like nobody meant it literally! But I feel like our industry has taken it literally! And we push and push and push and give more. Um, so, you know, think of your energy as being divided in half. In two halves. You know, you have your work self and your personal self. And each of those halves have 100. You know, you, you can fill each of those halves to 100%. Um, so there’s, I mean, they’re divided out more specifically, but for ease of, of figuring this out, we’re gonna just go with personal and business. Um, if you’re giving 110% of your energy from your business side, you’re taking that energy from your, your personal side. There’s, I mean, it has to come from somewhere. It’s kind of like time, like you don’t have more than you can give.
Sandra: Yeah. When you’re saying yes to one thing, you’re automatically saying no to something else. There’s no way around that.
Cindy: Right. So if you’re like, I’m gonna give 110% to this client and you’ve got 20 clients that adds up a lot to what’s taking out of your personal energy so it is okay to not to give 110% and you shouldn’t give 110%. Like, it’s just such a weird mentality. And it’s just words. I’s just a concept. There’s nobody I know who doesn’t give it their all. Like, just change the language. Don’t say 110%, because it’s just, it-it’s like, it’s just a dangerous concept to just be like, I’m just gonna give and give and give and give, and then.. and then you’ve got nothing. And I’ll tell when you have nothing, the kind of burnout you get when you have nothing is a dangerous kind of burnout. It’s not like a, I need a couple of Margarita’s burnout. It’s, I’m staring at this blank wall for six months, burnout. Like you physically cannot do it. And I know it because I’ve gone through it. And it wasn’t during, um, my, my wedding years, I also had a graphic design business before this and graphic design is very similar to wedding industry where you are a service job. And when you have multiple clients, um, you know, you are you’re the hero. So not only was I graphic design, but I was graphic design for presentations. And when you work with presentations, very similar to weddings, is it’s all very high stress and high pressure and very fast deadlines, and one thing I love more than anything. So it’s, it’s, it’s kind of, it’s kind of an addictive quality is, I love being the hero. I love saving the day for people. And, um, and I did that for a very long time. I did that for 20 years. I’m really making myself sound like I’m 80 years old!
Both: (Laugh)
Cindy: But, um, in any case, I, I got to a point, and this is where I, I mentioned that sometimes the seasons of your life intersect. Um, I was in the season of my life where my parents are, are getting older. My mom had cancer, and she had terminal cancer, and she was dying that year. We knew she was gonna die that year, which is a really weird thing to go through. Um, and also that year, like I, I had this job where I knew that there was this huge end of the year conference and she was going to die at the – during that conference. Also a really weird thing to go through. This was at the kind of the tail end of, of when I was doing my graphic design because I was just, I, I knew at that point I didn’t wanna do it anymore. I was exhausted. I was creatively tapped out and I was trying to leave it anyway. And, um, it was one of those things that kept stealing from my personal time. And I knew it. Um, you know, that conference, that end-of-the-year conference was during the holiday season, Thanksgiving through new years, and it stole a lot of time for my family, right during the holidays. Um, but man was that good money! You know, and you think about what you can do with that money and you don’t think about what’s gonna happen 10 years from now. You think about, I can use it now, and the next year I can use it now. And the next year you can use it now, and then the years start going really fast.
But in any case, um, when you don’t put those personal boundaries up, um, it’s not your client’s job to say I’ve probably taxed them enough.
Sandra: Oh yes! That’s so, so true!
Cindy: It’s not their job to go, you know, they’re probably tired. It’s – and we can get really, really resentful at the wrong people when we are feeling like we’re overtaxed. It’s our job to do that. It’s our, this is only our job. It is the only person’s job it is to protect is ours. And that when you’re, when you’re burnt out and you’re tired and you’re exhausted, that is a hard concept to be okay with.
Sandra: Yes, that’s so true. Um, I remember just speaking to that, like, I, I worked as a second photographer for a lot of years with other companies in my area, and I remember several times being at a wedding and the photographer that I’m working with is spiraling into a panic because they got an email from a couple and they’re like, “don’t they know where I am?! I it’s a Saturday!! Obviously I’m at a wedding! This is what I do!” And they’re spiraling and spiraling… as they’re replying. From their phone. During the wedding. On a Saturday. And so you’re, by doing things like that, you’re teaching your clients how to communicate with you. When you’re accessible, when you’re available. So if you’re not putting priority on making sure that you have time off and that you’re setting boundaries for your rest, they don’t know. They are just going by what you have educated them is okay.
Cindy: Exactly. They don’t have 25 other clients. I mean, they do. They have 25 other vendors they’re doing, but they’re doing their job. They are planning their wedding. They’re stressed and burned out themselves, but they’re, they’re stressed and burned. Like – neither, none of us are considering the other ones. We’re not really considering how stressed our clients are. They’re not considering how stressed we are. Or if we are, it’s fairly minimal, minimal. Um, you know, or any – at best, in an empathetic way, but we still need to get it done so we still have to push.
You know, but in any case, we are the ones that are responsible for it. And in this perfect storm of storms that happened, we had, also at this time, I think this, we were, it was during the course of a recession. The giant presentation thing was going on. My mom is dying. My mom died. She died a week before Christmas, so I didn’t even get to see her for Christmas. Um, the presentation was going on. The recession was going on. My client ended up dumping me right after the presentation and just ghosted me. Didn’t talk to me for months. I couldn’t get my money from them. And, um, and I just spiraled because several other clients just immediately ghosted too. And I don’t know if it had it to do with the recession or what I never got answers!
And, um, and so not taking care of myself and not seeing, not protecting that future and really planning to protect myself and kind of… Look out for myself the way I should, instead of constantly giving for my clients. And I mean, constantly-
Sandra: Mm-hmm. Treating yourself the way that you were treating your clients.
Cindy: Right? Exactly. And when all of a sudden they, they left ‘cause they had to go, I was left with next to nothing except being alone with my burnout. My 140% burnout, uh, where I really could not do anything for about six months. And I mean, like I – poor Sean. He was just like trying so hard not to be like, “we need a second income!”
Both: (Laugh)
Cindy: I was trying so hard and we were just in such a precarious financial situation because I didn’t take care of my mental health.
Sandra: Ya.
Cindy: So, that is how bad burnout can get. So it is really, really important to keep up on it. It’s really important to protect yourself. It’s really important. Like we all want to service our clients to the best of our ability, but we also have to realize that the best of our ability does not necessarily mean “here! Take all of my energy!”
Sandra: Absolutely.
Cindy: It’s like putting your mask on before helping somebody else with their mask.
Sandra: Mm-hmm. I think that’s such a great analogy!
Cindy: It is! Because it’s not selfish and a lot of people it’s, it’s bizarre how we all think that that’s selfish. It’s just like, right. But if we’re passed out, we can’t help people.
Sandra: Yeah, exactly. It’s so important. And it’s, I think has a lot to do with, you know, the generation that we were brought up in and things like that. But the mentality of take care of everybody, especially as women – take care of everybody, but yourself. And if you’re looking after yourself, putting yourself as number one priority, you’re selfish, you don’t care about other people. There are all these negative things. When in reality, like, a lot of the things that we’re trying to unlearn as we’ve come into this period of our lives is because of the mentality that our parents and grandparents had around things like that, that if they had maybe put themselves first every now and then that things would’ve proceeded, maybe easier, maybe not. We can’t say because it’s in hindsight, but at the same time, like, making those changes for me anyway has made a huge difference.
Cindy: Yes, exactly. Same here. And, uh, but yeah, you had mentioned before, especially as women. Um, you know, men have their own challenges. Typically it’s around emotional availability um, or being able to be vulnerable. Um, and ours is about, um, you know, taking care of ourself first. Um, and yeah, I think, oh gosh. Oh, I always think – I’m at the age where I think everything happened two years ago, but it was probably not.
Sandra: (Laughs)
Cindy: Um, Elizabeth Banks did almost like a PSA, which was really funny where she was going through a heart attack, and as a mom, she was just still taking care of everybody first before she collapses. She was just like having the chest pain, her left arm is going numb and you know, she’s sweating and like starting to collapse on the floor and she’s still like making the kids lunch. Um, she’s like, I’m fine. I’m fine. I’m fine. And you know, she’s like the, the whole PSA was actually about women having like a higher mortality rate of have, you know, especially younger women having a higher mortality rate going through heart attacks because we tend not to prioritize ourselves.
And, um, it was both comical and sad at the same time, because that’s what we do. We give, give to, to, you know, spouses we give to our kids, we give to our friends, we give to our parents, we give to our clients – somewhere in there we are there. Somewhere. I don’t know if we’d recognize us, but, um, but it’s really important that we start to, to know who we are. And that’s, I think at the beginning, this of, um, this particular segment I, I mentioned, it’s gonna be really important to know what your priorities are and, and where your boundaries are, need to be placed. But that also requires you knowing who you are. So it’s gonna, it, it’s kind of like a… Uh, what’s what am I trying to say? Like kind of a, a two prong attempt. So many people, um, when they are going through their wedding business, especially wedding professionals, when we first start out, we are all into the point where we kind of disappear ourselves. And if we do this for too long, like, we really don’t recognize who we are. We don’t remember what we do. Um, and especially at the, when, you know, August, especially in the Northeast is tends to be a time where a lot of us are, are at just peak wedding exhaustion and you know, us. Yeah. Both of us peak wedding exhaustion! And, um, like we can’t remember things. Um, we, like, we get to a point where we’re just kind of like, staring and not really sure what to say. I, I know I am super guilty with it about this, you know, part of Sean’s job is to remember what I like. You know, he’ll be like let’s go to, go out to dinner. What do you want? I’m like, I don’t know, honey, remind me of what I like. I’m like, because I’m tired. I’m like, I have to edit, I have to sell, I have to have all this client facing interaction and I have to be happy during all of it.
Sandra: It can be so depleting to just be on for hours and hours. Like that’s, there’s a whole other mental side of working a wedding that I think a lot of people don’t realize until they’re in it, that like there’s doing your job, and then there’s the mental part that goes along with it as well, to be happy and be on and be talking to people and be thinking 10 steps ahead. And all this other things… Like, on Sundays, I don’t like to speak. It’s just kind of like, leave me be, I’m gonna float around the house and everything will be totally fine, but like, I just don’t wanna use my voice today.
Cindy: Like, um, like for example, this past weekend we had, um, pretty much, I don’t know, the world had a, a heat wave for the past two weeks. And this I think was probably like just topping out and, you know, we were all exhausted and I, as the videographer, got the option to just “fly-on-the-wall”-it. I’m just like, you know what? I’m checking out. I’m just gonna film. I get the option. I’m, I’m supposed to just be the one that melts into the background. The photographer, I get to feel bad for because she has to wrangle everybody. She has to tell everybody how to be happy in a 120 degree heat, in direct sun on the beach, um, where everybody’s miserable, ‘cause they’re wearing wool suits and thick dresses and you know, it’s humid and we’re all just – none of us are happy.
Sandra: So true!
Cindy: Yeah. None of us, um, you know, none of us wanted to be there at all.
Sandra: I’m not gonna lie. I, uh, I actually took a week off, um, at the end of July while it was super hot and I haven’t had a wedding during this heat wave and I went into every Saturday saying, “I’m so glad I don’t have a wedding today,” because it is a whole other level when it is that hot outside.
Cindy: Ya. We missed the first heat wave, uh, of the season. And it was one of those things where we were like, oh, so glad we didn’t have it, and, but boy did we not – we were not lucky that next one! We had lots of weddings. But we made it through and we didn’t have heat stroke and we didn’t pass out. We didn’t come close to it, which made me very happy.
Sandra: Good! Um, you mentioned a little bit earlier about, um, the hustle of getting started and that’s something that I wanted to talk to you about as well, because it’s something that I’ve thought a lot about. Um, about whether or not that hustle culture mentality is necessary when you’re first starting out, because when you’re first starting a business, it does take longer hours, a little bit of footwork because you don’t have the word of mouth referrals and you need people to know that you exist and things like that. So I’d love to talk a little bit about if you think that it’s important to be a little looser on your boundaries in the beginning, or if you think that there is benefit to setting those boundaries right from the get go, and then building up from there.
Cindy: That’s a really, really good question. I think it’s really important. And I’m glad that you asked it. Um, having gone through two different companies, uh, and two different startups, I would say it’s really important to, to set those boundaries right away. Really, really important. Um, I am, I’m not going to say that I am a perfect boundary setter. I am not in the least a perfect boundary setter. Um, but what I would say is – I would say, identify what you’re willing to break your boundaries for. Um, if… So, on Cape Cod, everybody here on Cape Cod knows what a Cape Cod wedding looks like. Um, everybody’s dressed in like a dusty blue. There’s some pink highlights. There’s blue, hydrangeas everywhere. There’s lots of, uh, green, uh… oh gosh… Oh, eucalyptus, is really big. Um, sometimes there’s a bunch of baby’s breath. Um, but generally you can just stamp that wedding all around and that’s a Cape Cod wedding. It’s everywhere all the time. Sometimes it’s just a matter of how many more hydrangeas are gonna be there. Um, and, uh, we’ll all laugh or we’ll all just be, you know, cheering when we have flowers that are something other than a blue hydrangea. And you know, and so do not get me wrong. Blue hydrangeas are great. I mean, I, wasn’t always living on Cape Cod, so I, I have blue hydrangeas. You just, you get tired of it when you see it all the time, but, you know, it’s so special to your couples. So that is your everyday wedding on Cape Cod, even a, a higher end wedding on Cape Cod is probably going to be just flush with hydrangeas. Uh, one of our most famous weddings on Cape Cod that everybody knows about from September 28th, 2019, no, 2021. Um, the one with Bruno Mars, had a ceiling full of blue hydrangeas. They, I think an entire farm in Holland was just planted with blue hydrangeas for that wedding in particular.
Sandra: Wow.
Cindy: So, um, so one of our highest and most expensive weddings here was just blue hydrangeas. So what I would say is even for… So like, if you were just like, you know what, September 28th, I’m not working a wedding, uh, but then some super ultra luxury wedding is, uh, you know, contacts you, and you’re just like, uh, should I book it? And you can just be like, all right, listen. You can have your pros and cons list. And it can be like (sigh) freaking blue hydrangeas. Well… But it’s an entire farm of blue hydrangeas. That’s different than some bud vases of blue hydrangeas, you know? So you just go back and forth and be like, you know… Because I mean, somebody like me, uh, we love all of our clients. Like all of our clients are almost 98% of them are ideal clients. They love us. We love them. We’re good friends with all of them. They’re a joy to work with. There’s no one who isn’t a joy to work with. So even just liking the person isn’t, I don’t wanna say isn’t good enough, but it’s kind of not good enough. So like at this point, it’s just like, where do you wanna be next year or two years from now or five years now, is this wedding going to help it? Or, do you really badly need the money right now? Because we’ve all been there. And we’ve all taken the job just to, you know, because we need the money and we get it.
So, I mean, I would just have perspective on what you need right now and what will get you, uh, relief from X, Y, and Z. And I would say that – use that as your, your help to decide whether or not to break those boundaries. Um, as for hustling… Um, I hate hustling. Hustling’s exhausting. I mean, I totally understand you’re gonna have to hustle. Um, but I would say just when you’re hustling, um, know that you are not going to have the hustle energy forever, even if you were just like “I’m 20 and amazing, snd I have all the energy in the world! I have the energy of this supernova star!” You will not have it forever!
Sandra: Unfortunately, yes, it’s so true!
Cindy: It goes away when you’re 45 and doing this, you will hate everyone if you don’t protect yourself. Um, you know, so it’s gonna be really important. You’re gonna do so much better, go so much farther and, you know, love your job for the, every reason why you got into it to begin with, if you don’t just absolutely hustle your way through it. Um, just slow and steady always runs, uh, wins the race. You know, it might not be sexy and it might not be glamorous and it might not be that overnight success story, but who cares? Just get there the way that’s important to you.
Sandra: Yes. I love that. That’s so important. I am all about finding ways to run your business, regardless of its wedding photography, videography, fitness, like whatever industry you’re in, finding a way that works for you instead of finding ways for you to work like everybody else, because we all have so much going on with our lives, and so what works for one person is not always gonna work for another person. And I know when the first few years of my business, I was trying to do things like the photographers that I had worked for and learned from, and the, you know, watching workshops and things like that and trying to do everything the way that everybody else was doing it. And the only place that, that landed me was burnt out by the end of every year.
Cindy: Oh yeah, exactly. Or all the templates that you buy, um, they might not work for you because they don’t sound like you. I, I just bought templates from uh, uxury wedding videographers for upselling. And ah, they couldn’t sound farther from me at all. Oh my God! Boy they do not sound like me. If, if I just took that and plugged in people’s names, they would be like, “Ew! Who are you?!” Like you just, you can’t… There’s no… I don’t wanna say there’s no shortcuts. Of course there are shortcuts, but shortcuts aren’t going to be as fast and as easy as you think they’re going to be. There’s no… there’s no silver bullet. There’s no, um, there’s just no easy, super, super easy, fast way. And if there is for you then that, then you found something that was going to work for you regardless. So any of those, like how to make, you know, $150,000 in the first three months. That worked for that person. Might not work for you. Chances are it won’t work for you.
Sandra: Right!
Cindy: But that’s also, if they’re selling it to you, that’s probably how they made $150,000 in that first three months. They figured out how to sell the people who really wanna make $150,000 in that first three months.
Sandra: Yeah, absolutely. Just find little takeaways. Like I think it’s so important to invest in your education and things like that, but you definitely wanna go into it with the perspective of this worked for them so find the takeaways that resonate with you and find ways to implement that into your own business, and you’re gonna be so much more successful that way than just taking everything that they said for the black and white value and then, you know, a few months down the road, you’re wondering why do I still feel like I’m in the exact same place I was three months ago?
Cindy: Exactly. I would say find ways to work smarter. Um, you know, so going back to the templates thing, um, I-I’m, I’m shocked at how many people don’t use templates. Use templates that are from you!
Sandra: Yes, exactly!
Cindy: You-use anything that you have to use multiple times. Make that into a template. Um, you know, find, find, discover what your process is. Write it down. Um, and this might seem simple and obvious, but I mean it, number one, importance. Number two, um, there might be steps in your process that you’re missing. Um, there could be times like right now, Sean and I are we’re at that cusp where we’re growing. We’re not growing so fast where all of a sudden we can throw a whole bunch of money at the problem and they’ll go away, we’re like, at that point where we’re like, boy throwing a lot of money in it would be great and it would probably solve it, but we don’t have that money to throw it at. So, we have to like do that uncomfortable, like twisting of things. Yeah. A lot of people find themselves in that situation. Um, so you kind of have to figure out what’s gonna get you there faster.
Um, when you identify what’s going to work in your education, I, I mean, I, I will always sing the praises of finding the right coach. Make sure that right coach is right for you. Do a – do not be impulsive about it. Do your homework. Interview your coach. If they don’t wanna be interviewed, do not hire them! They should want to be. It’s kind of like when, um, when you’re selling to couples, um, you should wanna work with them as much as they wanna work with you. Same thing with a business coach. You know, they’re not, everyone’s gonna be a good fit. You know, we say that to our couples or our prospective couples, and you’re not gonna be a good fit for everyone. Everyone’s not gonna be a good fit for you. And that is going to be true for everything that happens in life! You know, pretty much everything. Anything that happens that deals with people that’s going to be true for all of it. So, you know, a, a good coach is gonna lead you to places, um, faster than you probably would’ve stumbled through on your own. If you especially are in a place where you are stumbling and you can’t figure it out and you’re just so super frustrated and you’re just like, “Ugh, but spending the money on the coach is gonna be so much!” and you’re, but you’re just so stuck – hire the coach. I always look at it like this. Because I, I think we all, all of us have those things that we’ll immediately spend money on. Um, and we all have those things, and it’s usually got something to do with like investing in ourselves that isn’t like fun. Um, I only always look at it this way. I look at it in retrospect. If in the future, whether that’s three months, five months, five years, ten years… Looking back, if it could, if you could solve the problem by paying $5,000 in ten years. Ten years from now, if you could look back and say, “oh, if I could just pay, you know, past Cindy, if I could just pay $5,000 and she wouldn’t have had that problem.” If you could just pay that and it would just go away, would you pay it? And if the answer is yes, then invest in it because that’s the answer. (Laughs)
Sandra: I love that.
Cindy: Invest in the thing. Um, and then if the answer is no, then don’t.
Sandra: I love that. That’s such a good way to look at it.
Cindy: Ya, that that’s usually like one of the best ways of figuring out whether or not you should spend money on something, is if you can use this money to solve it, like, um, you know, sometimes it’s, uh, something as dumb and little as cold medicine. Like, I know that the brand name, I always know that the brand name is, is going to get rid of my cold, you know, in three days. But I oh, but like the generic is $5 cheaper and you’re like, yeah, but if it takes.. If it doesn’t work or if it takes longer to work, you know, on day three, would you have paid an extra $5 to get better sooner? Would you do it? Yes. Okay. Then buy it now.
Sandra: Right.
Cindy: That kind of a thing. So it works on all the levels.
Sandra: That’s so, so true. I love that. Um, so talking a little bit more about burnout before we wrap things up. A lot of times we do feel ourselves getting into that point. We’re getting drained. We’re starting to dread the things that we have booked a little bit more, we’re feeling like our to-do lists are ever-growing and never-ending, but sometimes it happens a lot faster than that, where it’s kind of just like we went one step too far or something unexpected avenue in our personal lives, and it all kind of comes crumbling down into a mess of burnout too. When you get into those spaces, what, whatever reason it is that led you to that point, do you think that there are steps that will help you get through it and come out the other side?
Cindy: You’re asking all the good questions.
Sandra: Ya, we’re getting really deep into it in this interview!
Cindy: Well, let’s see. Um. Absolutely, for sure. Um, it also, again, with everything else I’ve said, it also has to deal with being aware. So noticing that you’re, that you’ve, you’ve gone too far. Already noticing, it’s like the whole awareness thing is, is so key. So always being able to check in with yourself is so important and so big.
So, uh, so for steps to, to kind of get out of that before it gets too far, um, even if you’re somebody who’s not all that comfortable with facing, uh, those types of situations and not everybody is. And even the people who are, it can still be difficult. Um, the only way, and I do mean the only way, the only way out is through. You have to be okay with not being okay. You have to. you have to, ‘cause you have to go through it in order to be able to fix what’s going on. And it can either be something super simple and very quick, or it can be something really deep and really dark, and it’s gonna take a while. Either way, if you ignore it, it’s just going to compound. Um, and you can’t, you could try to ignore it. But then when you do ignore it, that’s when things, you know, when something happens and you can’t figure out why, or if you’ve, if you had a friend, maybe it’s easier to, to look at it from another, you know, somebody else’s perspective. Um, when you have a friend who something’s going wrong with, or maybe it’s like, they’re in the wrong job or they’re in the wrong relationship and they don’t want, like, all they do is they, they just come to you, the complaint about it over and over.
Sandra: Mm-hmm. They find comfort in the chaos of it all.
Cindy: Right.
Sandra: Because that’s what they’re familiar with and trying to do anything to get out of that is scary and it’s unknown. And so it becomes easier to just stay in all of that chaos.
Cindy. Right. Exactly. And you can see, you can see how easy it would be if they just realized, oh, this is just bad.
Sandra: Mm-hmm.
Cindy: I should just deal with it. Um, but they either don’t notice it or, um, don’t recognize it. I mean, I-I’ve been around plenty of people that this happened to. And they may not even mention that it’s a problem with the job. They can just be like, “my life sucks. This keeps happening. Y keeps happening.” And if, if that kind of situation starts coming up – “why does this keep happening to me? Why do my clients hate me? Why do I keep getting the worst clients? Uh, why don’t I, why can’t I ever raise my rates?” You know, you gotta look for like little things like that. So it’s not gonna look the way it’s gonna look when you see some happening to somebody else. So it’s always gonna look as if it’s being caused by an external thing. That’s when you need to, to stop and be like, it’s not happening because of something else it’s it’s happening because of some- I’m missing a step and you have to step back and you have to, and you have to reflect, you have to look and you have to be okay with knowing that there’s something wrong and, and just trying, trying to uncover it. Because, I mean, if you don’t and I’ve had plenty of this happen to me, life is just gonna change for you. Life is forward momentum. Nothing is stagnant in life. Even if it feels like your life isn’t changing, life is changing around you and life will change whether you want it to or not. So it is best to be able to go along for the ride. And it can be scary. It can be, and that is okay. It’s, it’s often scary. And, but usually the best things that happen are on the other side of that thing you don’t wanna look at. Um, and that is almost always the best things. So one of the things that I do when something particularly scary or, um, unpleasant is going on, um, I’ll often remind myself like, oh hey, anytime that something like this has happened to me, I’ll look back… Or if it’s just unpleasant, you know, you go through those times and you’re just like, why me? It’s not something that you can identify. And you’ve tried, you know, even if you’re just super self-reflective, you’re just like, “Nope. It’s not me. I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t know what it’s, it’s just terrible, terrible luck.” Still just be okay with it not being okay because eventually it will become okay. It will get there. And on the other side – if this has ever happened to you before – many times it’s after all that awfulness, it’s oftentimes the best things that’s happened. Whether you’ve lost a client you didn’t wanna lose and then a better client came along or, um, somebody who’s in like a really bad booking season. Um, even they haven’t booked for months, uh, and they just, you know, all these mediocre, like the, they, the “okay” projects came in. Projects that they would’ve been like, okay, booking came in, they lost and they don’t know why. Um, but then two months later they get all of those amazing bookings that actually give them forward momentum and then they’re like, “oh, well, thank God. I didn’t book all the other buttons because I would’ve been, I wouldn’t have been available these and I would’ve had to give ’em to somebody else.” So trying to just work through it because, um, because if you don’t, it’s just gonna be so much more painful.
Sandra: That’s so, so true. And when it comes to burnout, in terms of running a small business, if you don’t deal with it this year and you do find a way to just, you know, compartmentalize and push it deep down and not deal with it – which is what I did a few times over! It still came back year after year after year to the point that like early 2019 I was crying on the phone to my husband saying, “I’m gonna shut down my business, ‘cause I can’t do this anymore.” It will always, always come back to you. So I think it’s so important to just like you were saying, like press pause, do some internal reflection, find out what your needs are, what your non-negotiables are and give yourself the confidence of just knowing that you’ve gone through hard times before and you’ve always come out the other side and this is going to be one of those times too.
Cindy: Yep, exactly, exactly.
Sandra: Awesome. Well, before we wrap things up, is there anything else, any final thoughts you would like to add in or anything like that?
Cindy: Uh, you know, normally I probably would, but I’ve got August peak wedding brain, so, um-
Sandra: I can totally relate!
Cindy: But if I think of anything, I will email you and, you know, I would ask for you to add on in my honour.
Sandra: That sounds perfect. I love that. Well, thank you so much again! Um, and before I hop off, I would love if you could share, um, where everybody can find you online on social media and things like that, so they can follow along.
Cindy: Well, you can find us on Instagram, it’s where we are most of the time. Um, and that’s @HarborviewStudios, and we are on TikTok, with the same name Harborview studios, or you can check out our website at harborviewstudios.com.
Sandra: Perfect! I will definitely make sure to link all of those in the show notes as well to make it super easy for everybody to find you.
Cindy: That’s awesome. Thank you so much.
(Continued…)
Sandra: Ok – how great was that interview?!
I recorded this with Cindy back in August and honestly, I feel like it’s even more timely now towards the end of September than it was when we first connected. Most of us are gearing up for the craziness that is October and it’s when that feeling of burnout really starts to take hold for so many people. A little saying in the photography industry is that October is to photographers what April is to accountants. It could NOT be more true, ya’ll!
So I hope today’s episode has given you some tools and inspiration to take even just a small step towards implementing boundaries so that you can head into your next busy season on a path that isn’t leading you directly to burnout.
(Outro Music)
Thanks so much for listening to Keeping It Candid: Wedding Photography Unfiltered with Sandra Henderson! You can find full show notes from today’s episode at simplysandrayvonne.ca/keepingitcandid. In the meantime – let’s connect! You can find me on Instagram @simplysandrayvonne, and on Facebook in the Wedding Photography Unfiltered community! If you’re loving this podcast, I’d be so honoured if you’d go ahead and hit that subscribe button and leave me a review!
Until next time!
About Cindy
Since 2006, Harborview Studios has created timeless, colorful, vibrant wedding films of couples getting married for couples getting married on Cape Cod, Martha’s Vineyard, Nantucket, or all of New England.
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