Sandra Henderson 0:00
Breaking into a new market in the photography industry is no easy task, but it’s something that I really think every wedding photographer is going to experience at one point or another during their career. Whether you’re looking to break into a market at a higher price point like working at luxury weddings or if you’re trying to break into like the destination market or elopement markets, or if you’re relocating, there are so many instances where you’re going to be faced with the need to attract clients in a totally different areas and the one that you have been working in, it almost makes it feel like you’re starting your business all over again. But there are some ways that you can make the transition a little bit easier.
Sandra Henderson 0:36
This week on the podcast, John from All Heart Photo joined me for an interview. He’s a wedding photographer and educator based in Houston, Texas, and is also the host of the Wisdom In The Tangents podcast, which I had the absolute pleasure of being a guest on recently!
Sandra Henderson 0:51
John and I chatted all about what it’s like breaking into a new market reasons why wedding photographers might get to a point in their careers where that’s becoming a reality for them. And how did make the transition easier along the way.
Sandra Henderson 1:03
You’re listening to Episode 30 of Keeping It Candid.
Sandra Henderson 1:07
Welcome to keeping it candid. I’m your host, Sandra Henderson, an international wedding and family photographer and business coach. I help wedding photographers use systems to build out the back end of their businesses to gain control and continue to thrive no matter what life throws their way. And on a more personal note, I’m a strong Enneagram three weighing two who is obsessed with tacos and my love for traveling combined with navigating chronic illness life are just two of the many things that drive my passion for all things systems, workflows, and beating burnout as a business owner. Join me every week for a candid behind the scenes look at what it’s really like working as a wedding photographer, where I’ll give you actionable steps to take your business to the next level. Absolutely no fluff here friends. So go grab your favorite notebook and pen and let’s dive into this week’s episode.
Sandra Henderson 1:55
Welcome, John to the podcast. I’m so excited to have you here. I’m so excited for us to have a chance to switch roles after I had a chance to be on your podcast for an interview recently. Before we dive in, I would love if you would just take a second to introduce yourself and let everybody know a little bit about what you do.
John Mansfield 2:12
Absolutely, yeah, I’m excited to be here as well and get to chat again. This is gonna be it’s gonna be fun. I’ve been looking forward to this. Yeah, I’m John Mansfield. I’m a wedding portrait branding photographer, based in the Houston Texas area. And I am also photography educator. I have a podcast that wisdom in the tangents podcast, which you were on recently. We had a fun conversation there. And yeah, I just I really have a desire for for just empowering people through photography by empowering them to see themselves I recently did this is a tangent already. But But I recently did some headshots for a corporate event and the amount of people who came up and just like there was this one lady in particular who just like grabbed my arm. And she was like, I have never liked a photo of myself before. And I love this photo, you actually captured like my real smile. And I was like, oh, that’s that’s thing. That’s what I’m here for. This is what, like drives me.
Sandra Henderson 3:19
Oh, that’s awesome. And tangents are always welcomed here. If you like are having a conversation with me for an hour, and we can like stick on one topic for an hour, that’s a miracle. That’s pretty much unheard of. So yeah, love, love a good tangent. But today we’re gonna be diving into talking about photographers wanting to break into a new market. And so I thought we would start at just like the very, very basics very beginning and say, just I wanted to ask you, what does it actually mean to break into a new market?
John Mansfield 3:50
Yeah, I mean, that can mean a lot of different things. Kind of like to boil it down to one major thing, it’s, it’s when you’re when you have a major difference between the target clients that you’re currently serving, and your desired target client of the next market, whether that’s geographically if you’re moving, or you just want to be like, you know, I live in the middle of nowhere, I just want to fly out to you know, like California or bamboo or something have fun of just like, I’m going to make this a new market and you want to start talking to them and marketing to new geographical area or if you’re moving up from you know, like the the budget couples to kind of that mid range area to the high end area to luxury and moving into a different market in that way too. Or just changing photography genres completely. So it’s all whenever there’s a major difference between who you’re currently speaking to through your marketing and branding to who you You’re wanting to connect with.
Sandra Henderson 5:01
I love that that’s such a good way of explaining it and breaking it down and a plus for the Canadian named drop there when he brought up bass, I appreciate it.
John Mansfield 5:09
I feel like that’s like a very generic like, every every American knows bam. And I was like, Okay, I’m just gonna go with that one.
Sandra Henderson 5:17
That works. It works. I love it. Um, so do you think that photographers ever approach any milestones in their career where this is like, where you would say, if you’ve hit this point, it’s time to consider breaking into a new market? Or do you think that it’s something that’s kind of just like personal preference, and however you’re feeling?
John Mansfield 5:36
Yeah, I think a lot of it is personal preference. I know that there are some photographers that, you know, they’ve been photographing for, you know, 510 years, but they’re still serving the same clients that they served in their first couple of years. But I think some of the major milestones that really kind of, maybe awaken us to thinking of branching into a new market are like elevating your skill set. You know, whenever you have photographed 10 weddings or 10, photoshoots, you have a specific skill set that you’re you’re growing in. And that’s going to be very different than 150 Weddings down the road. And the target client that you have at that, you know, the first year or two of your business is going to be most likely different than in year 10. So yeah, that kind of like once you’re hitting those milestones of like, Oh, I remember whenever I hit 25 weddings, and I was just like, This is crazy. I’m a professional photographer now. And, and now I’m, like, nearing 300. And I’m like that, like I do more than 25 in a year now. And that took like three years to get to 25
Sandra Henderson 6:54
so amazing that you’re getting close to 300 weddings, congrats on that.
John Mansfield 6:58
Thank you, it is a lot. My body is feeling the 300 weddings, I’m like, I need to I need to scale this down a little bit. But yeah, like your your skill set, that’s a milestone. And also like elevating your clients experience. Because that’s, that’s a different market, whenever you’re talking to like the I’m just hiring you to show up and take pictures kind of couple, versus the more guided experience of providing value and guides and articles meeting with them about timelines, and really being more involved. I remember my first few weddings where I didn’t, I didn’t know what they look like, I would show up and be like, okay, so you’re wearing white, are you the bride? And and that’s just like, I cringe about that. No, like, That is so weird. But yeah, that and, and I would I would show up without a timeline. And I would just know, this is the time of the ceremony. And this is the time that they told me to show up. And that was it. And and that’s just that stresses me out. Just thinking about that now. So yeah, yeah, those are, those are some different milestones of kinda like changing your, the way that you do your business and the way that you serve your clients.
Sandra Henderson 8:24
One thing that I thought of, as you were talking about that is like how it applies to my business. And for me, kind of, I don’t know if I would consider it a milestone, but kind of a point that I hit in my own business was just kind of feeling creatively unfulfilled. And hopefully, none of my clients listen to this, because they’re all amazing. I love all their weddings, and they absolutely mean no like shade or judgment to them at all. But we have a huge market for barn weddings in my area. And all too. Yeah, it’s brutal and like I want more than to get out of doing barn weddings. And I really I can’t fully get out of it. It’s just like I have to embrace it to a certain extent. But I needed to just kind of shift myself into a new market where I was booking higher end barn weddings, because like if I had another wooden frame from the dollar store painted and drawn on with like, just scribbled with a table number. And like plastic dinosaurs on the table that I was going to lose my mind creatively. So that was something that I encountered in my own business where I was like, Okay, it’s time for a shift here.
John Mansfield 9:33
That’s funny that you said the plastic dinosaurs because I recently had a say recently, it was probably two years ago now. But it was a much more high end wedding. It was at a very nice hotel in downtown Houston and they had ceramic dinosaurs on their centerpieces. So like things don’t really change all that much. But it’s the it’s the feel, and it’s the aesthetics. But yeah, I feel you with those barn weddings, we have so many barn venues out here. And, and there are some that are like the the lower budget. And you know, literally hay on the floor, kind of barn wedding. And then there are others. There’s one. It’s like 16,000 square feet. And it’s gigantic with, you know, two storey crystal chandeliers coming down from the middle. And it looks like a barn from the outside. But the inside is very elegant. And I’m like, I’m going to market more toward that one with the giant chandeliers than I am this one that I you know, may step in something that I don’t want to track through the venue, the other weddings? So yeah, I think that’s a good point of kind of assessing where you are and and who you’ve been serving. And do you want to keep serving those people if you’re continuing to get those leads for barn weddings, or continuing to get the leads for, for even, you know, like ballroom weddings, if you’re not a ballroom type person, if you’re wanting to do more of elopements and travel and adventure, but you’re continuing to get those leads for traditional weddings, then, then yeah, assessing that and seeing how you can change the way that you’re speaking to your target clients to attract more of the elopement style or whatever you’re going for.
Sandra Henderson 11:31
Yeah, the way that you’re speaking to them, that’s such a good point to bring up. And also, we hear a lot in the photography industry that you need to show what you want to book. So do you have any advice for someone that’s wanting to break into the new market, but doesn’t necessarily have like any photos that will cater to that in their portfolio?
John Mansfield 11:50
Oh, yeah, I know, some people don’t love styled shoots. And that’s okay. But styled shoots are great. Because it is a really great way one to build vendor relationships, because you can reach out to like some I did one with this amazing florist. And had really just asked for a couple of bouquets, maybe a little bit of something to put on the wall, just to make it look really nice. And she went above and beyond like probably spent $1,000 of her own money on this crazy floral arch. And that really moved it from more of a just this is we’re just getting together as vendors and doing this styled shoot to this is a luxury styled shoot now. And this is something that my regular clients that hire me aren’t doing. So that’s something that you can do is reaching out to vendors. And it may cost a little bit of money, especially for florists because they’re spinning their money to buy these flowers that they’re most likely not going to reuse. But, but yeah, setting up styled shoots. Also talking to your current clients about what they have dreams of, because maybe they don’t have a budget to get. I don’t know if you’ll have these up there. But we have, like beer borrows little donkeys that hold cases or like little satchels of beer and they just walk around. It’s really cool. I’ve only had that at a few weddings, but like that is that more high end, you’re not going to see that at least not the way that these donkeys are dressed up at, you know, a lower budget wedding. But if you’re talking to one of your couples, and they’re just like, oh, we really want to do these bureaus, or we really wanted to get such and such florist but it’s just out of our budget, even just working with them or talking to the bureau people and saying, hey, they’re really interested in hiring you could we make a deal where I pay you like half or something, and then we’ll do a photo shoot together, you get all these photos or I’ll do something special for you and, and elevating that client experience for your clients to where they’re getting something new. That is kind of elevating them more to that next level that high in that luxury look. And then you have that for your portfolio and they have an amazing time at their wedding and they’re like, my photographer got us beer burrows. This is insane. But yeah-
Sandra Henderson 14:33
That’s such a great suggestion. Like we hear about style sessions a lot is a great way to do a lot of things but that’s something like totally unique that I’ve never heard someone suggest before it’s like, you know, either cutting a deal with the vendor or maybe putting up a little bit out of pocket if that’s something that you have the ability to do with your budget. That’s such a great idea and a great way to bid not just build a relationship with the vendors but just like show up for your couples and go above and beyond.
John Mansfield 14:59
Yes, and I I’d love to take credit for that idea. But I heard that from my friend Tyler Spire, who’s a luxury wedding coordinator out in Santa Barbara, California and just like doing six and seven figure weddings. And he does that with his clients, where, which being a planner, it’s you have that conversation a little bit more to where, you know, like, oh, they really wanted peonies flowers, but they can’t afford that. And then you can split the difference, by kind of taking that money that you might spend doing a styled shoot, and then spending it on your clients and, and elevating that for them elevating the portfolio for you.
Sandra Henderson 15:40
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Sandra Henderson 16:34
That’s so good. I love that so much. Now my next question for you really kind of only applies to someone who is looking to break into a market that is different from the one that they’re already in, in the respect of like, if they’re a wedding photographer, and they want to start offering family sessions or something along those lines, a family photographer who wants to start breaking into the newborns, side of the industry. We hear a lot about people talking about the importance of niching down and I would love to hear your thoughts on how that kind of impacts what we’re doing in our business. If we do want to move into a different market. Do you think that it hinders wedding photographers to be branching out into something completely unrelated?
John Mansfield 17:19
I don’t think that it has to hinder them. I think that a lot of times it does. But a lot of times that is because you’re taking what you’ve learned and how to market to your current clients, whether it be you know, wedding clients, and you’re taking that into newborns, and you’re speaking to these parents, as you would speak to engaged couples. And the point, it’s yeah, it’s just not hitting the same way. And you might get a few leads, but you’re really not connecting with them, and the way that you need to. So really learning about your target client is especially when you’re switching complete genres like that, because weddings and newborns, very different. I have tried my hand at newborns, not for me.
Sandra Henderson 18:14
So when I was first starting out, I was like, I’m totally gonna be a newborn photographer. I brought by all the props and did all the things and then I just Yeah, we don’t do newborn photos over here anymore.
John Mansfield 18:25
No, no. And the my newborn photographer friends, like they are the best they love it. It is it’s their pride and joy they have all of the things I’ve seen a warehouse is full of just props and setups, and like warming beanbag chair, things to prop the baby on and like, Okay, y’all, this is for you.
Sandra Henderson 18:50
We’ll send them to the people who like that’s their specialty,
John Mansfield 18:53
right? Yeah. And occasionally I’ll get past clients that, you know, photograph their wedding two or three years ago, and they’re like, Hey, we’re expecting a baby. You know, can we hire you, we want you to do our photos. I’m like, I would love to do your family photos. That’s something that I like to do. However, I am not good at newborns. But my friend Michelle, she’s amazing. And she’s right here in town. So yeah, sending them and that, you know, builds those, those referral relationships as well, because she doesn’t do weddings, and she can send weddings my way.
Sandra Henderson 19:25
Exactly, you shouldn’t have newborn photographers doing weddings and vice versa. And like, I think there’s a whole conversation that’s for a totally different podcast, but there’s a lot of safety issues when you’re working with newborns. And so that’s one thing that always like I just can’t shake from the back of my mind. You’re a parent so you totally understand this. But having someone who has absolutely no experience just winging it and sticking a baby in a bucket, there’s a lot of issues with that. So I definitely I am an I’d have training and experience but not enough experience that I want to put anybody in that position especially this adorable newborn little babies Though I want to send those clients over to someone who is experienced and trained in those safety procedures,
John Mansfield 20:06
yes, I think like, everyone saw that Anne Geddies photos of like the baby and the watermelon. They’re like, I want to do that. And then they see all these beautiful photoshopped pictures on Pinterest, because a lot of times you do like to get the baby with the both hands holding up the chin. They can’t do that at two weeks. So you’re having to do one side and then the other and Photoshop and blend those together, stack images, all that, that a photographer, not a newborn photographer coming into that space, myself included, I tried to do that the baby’s head just like, fell to the side. I was like, yeah, we’re just gonna move on. We’re not gonna do this. But yeah, there’s a safety issue for sure. So if you’re thinking about doing that reach out to some newborn photographers in in get trained?
Sandra Henderson 20:56
Yeah. Second, that advice, For sure.
John Mansfield 20:58
Yeah, yeah. But overall, I would say if you’re moving to a completely different genre, a completely different market of clients, you want to learn who that that new client is going to be, instead of speaking to them the way that you have spoken to your past clients, they may not connect as well, with with the way that you’re speaking. So definitely learn them and learn how to speak to them now.
Sandra Henderson 21:25
That’s so true. Such a great point. And that perfectly leads into my next question for you is what are some do’s or don’ts that wedding photographers should keep in mind as they’re breaking into a new market, whether that be a market that’s totally different, or one in the same? Like within the wedding industry, they’re looking to, you know, reach destinations or a higher price point or anything like that? What are some do’s and don’ts?
John Mansfield 21:46
Well, first Don’t, don’t, don’t talk to them, like you talk to your your previous clients. Unless that still matches, you know, most of the time moving to a new market, it’s not going to match even moving from like, like more of a budget or mid range coupled to a high end and luxury couple, you’re going to speak to them differently. Because a lot of times with like the, the, the lower in the budget couples, you’re like, alright, if you anyone who books, eight plus hours, you get a free album. And it’s like those kind of like almost Walmart or you know, some sort of like superstore type deal of buy this and get this free, or I want to know everything, you’re constantly running discounts. And in the luxury market, it’s much more about the experience that they’re going to have and the connection that you have together. So-
Sandra Henderson 22:41
At a certain point, people, when you’re like trying to reach the luxury market, people will look negatively on a lot of sales and a lot of discounts and things being thrown in for free. They’re like, Okay, well, what’s wrong with it? Why is this happening? So that’s totally an important point to bring up for sure.
John Mansfield 22:57
Yeah, how can I trust you? If, if you’re constantly offering discounts, like how do I know that I’m getting a good, a good experience. So that’s one Don’t, don’t do that. Do network with, with vendors with other photographers, network with your potential clients in different client group, you know, Facebook groups, and, and all that kind of thing, local meetups and stuff like that. But a quick note on that, don’t go in there trying to sell yourself in these groups, it’s really easy way to get booted out of them, and not invited back. But go in and provide value. And it may take a while for them to really see you and see the value that you give. But if you’re going in and you’re providing value, and you’re helping, like in a lot of these couples, Facebook groups where they’re looking for vendors, instead of just coming in and be like, Hey, I’m a photographer, this is my prices hire me. It’s like, oh, you’re also looking for a DJ, here’s three DJs that I love working with and they they crowd work really really well. And also I’m a photographer, here’s my here’s my stuff. But yeah, that’s a do a don’t is don’t start off on level one. So what that means is like if you’re if you’ve been a let’s say you’re you’ve been a wedding or family photographer for five years and you have that experience behind the camera, you know your your camera like the back of your hand, you know all of that you know how to work with people, but you’re wanting to get into wedding photography. Don’t start off at level one wedding photography because you still have all that experience with your camera with working with people. So you you have that experience to start off a few levels higher. So you don’t have to go and be like okay, well I will. This is my first wedding. So I guess I need to try charge like $500 you actually have that experience, maybe not in a wedding setting, but you have experience working with people and working with your camera that you don’t have to start off as a fresh person who just bought a camera three weeks ago.
Sandra Henderson 25:14
Oh, that is such a good point. I love that.
John Mansfield 25:17
Yeah. Yeah, there’s a lot of experience that you can move over from your previous market to whichever market you’re going to. Yeah, absolutely.
Sandra Henderson 25:26
That was so helpful. Thank you for all of those. I hope everybody that was listening was taking notes. And if you’re not, that’s the great thing about podcasts is you can just go back and you can listen to it. Because those were some amazing takeaways. And then speaking of takeaways, if there is one key thing that you hope that everyone who is listening could like take and apply to their business, if they’re considering breaking into a new market right after they’re done listening to this episode. What would that one thing be?
John Mansfield 25:54
Yes. Okay. No, you asked for one thing. I have a couple of things, but they’re quite like set multiple, okay. Also, I love all your segues. In this episode, we’re just like, speaking of takeaways, what’s the takeaway? Like I love it. I’m like, I’m constantly just like segwaying in real life all the time. But Okay, so first takeaway, I would say, assess where you are. Look at what you’re doing. Are you happy with your business? Are you happy with the clients that you have? Are you constantly working with bride and groom’s villas and mother in law’s villas, and just like, Okay, I don’t know, if weddings are, for me, this is high stress, high stakes, I want to go with something more like newborns where I can have a four hour session. And as long as we get like, 15, great photos, that’s probably although they’re going to print. And like where it’s less stressful. At least I think it is, I don’t know. But like, assess where you are, and, and really see if this is where you want to keep going. Because a lot of times I feel like we get kind of stuck into, well, this is what I’m doing. So I’m gonna keep doing this, I am a wedding photographer. So I’m going to keep being a wedding photographer. Even though branding photography looks interesting. I’m just gonna keep doing this, because this is what I’ve been doing. And this is who I am, this is what people know me as. So as just take a look at where you are and what you’re doing. And if you want to keep doing that, or if you want to branch out and start doing some stuff on the side. And then second, if you do decide to move to a new market, I know I’ve kind of talked about this a few different times. But it’s really important how you speak to your target client. So learn who your target client is going to be in this new market, learn their desires, learn their pain points, speak to those desires and pain points in a way that will draw them in to wanting to work with you. Even if you’re new to the market, even if you’ve hardly done any weddings, and you’re wanting to get into wedding photography, but you’re able to speak to them about their desires of wanting these moments captured to where, you know, they’re, it’s, it’s one time that is probably going to be the only time that both of their families are there and all of their friend groups and childhood friends in college friends and co workers and like everyone is melting together. And you’re getting these moments of everyone meeting each other and having fun. And that kind of stuff, which is going to be so valuable for them for a lifetime. Learning how to speak to those desires and learning how to speak to the pain points of Well, I’m not a model, and I don’t know what to do with my hands and how do I pose myself and showing them that you know, how to pose them. And that’s going to that’s going to kind of tamper down the stress and the anxiety of hiring a photographer and getting in front of a camera, if you can speak to their pain points. So really, if you’re moving into a new market, learn who your new target client is and speak to their desires and their pain points. I know those were I said there wasn’t going to be quick and then I just went on for both.
Sandra Henderson 29:19
Okay, we are we are very similar in that way. So I loved it that was also good. And I was thinking as well like speaking to their pain points. It’s such a great way to help them feel seen. And it’s going to just level up that client experience as well as pushing you into that new market that you’re wanting to get into. So it’s just it’s one of those like, kind of like foundational things that are so important to do in your business regardless of if you’re just starting out if you’ve been doing this for 10 years, like I just redid all of my ICA A’s and like my core values, my mission statement everything over Christmas holidays. That’s what I did during my time off
John Mansfield 29:58
workaholic entrepreneurs just like we’re, oh, I have time off. Cool. I can work on this.
Sandra Henderson 30:05
Right? I just like did it on my couch while I was watching a movie. And so I just felt like I was still taking time. But yeah, just setting that foundation, it’s going to give you so much clarity in the direction that you’re heading with your marketing, whether that be in the market that you’re already working in, or branching out into a new one. Like there’s so many benefits to figuring out your why who your ideal clients are and who it is that you’re speaking to.
John Mansfield 30:29
Yes, yes. Yeah. And even if it is that you look at that, and you’re like, No, I’m good. Like, I’m speaking to them exactly how I need to I my target clients are exactly who I want to be working with. I love all of my, my clients and these leads that are coming in. I’m at a good place. Like that assessment could take five minutes, and then you just be like, Alright, cool. I’m good. Like, we’ll, we’ll go another year, and then we can assess again. Yeah, absolutely.
Sandra Henderson 30:57
Well, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for all of this that you’ve brought to the table today. But before we wrap things up, if you could just let everybody know where to find you on social media, so they can go and give you a follow.
John Mansfield 31:09
Sure. Yeah, I have. I loved this, Sandra, this has been so much fun. Thank you for having me on. You can find me on Instagram and TikTok I’m at @allheartphoto on both of those. And you can check out my podcast, it’s Wisdom In The Tangents. I don’t know off the top of my head what, what episode number yours was Sandra, but just scroll back a little bit. It was a couple months ago. And yeah, that’s that’s mainly where I hang out is Instagram and TikTok. I probably do too much consuming on TikTok than actually creating stuff. But it’s more of a fun account anyway.
Sandra Henderson 31:47
Yeah, that’s what I like my approach with my TikTok as well, though I am not I’m not a consumer. And so it was really hard for me to get on to the platform, just because I was like, I can spend about two minutes on tick tock before I’m like tired of having to scroll like, if those videos autoplay, they’d have me forever, but like, having to, like swipe through, it loses me really quickly. But I use my profile. That’s the word I was looking for my profile just for fun as well. Like I have no strategy behind it. I’m trying to like start doing things more like native to the TikTok platform. But for right now, I’ve literally just been like, I saved my Instagram real after I’m done. And then I posted on our on TikTok.
John Mansfield 32:32
Yep, yeah, I’m about the same. Like I have no strategy, like half of mine are just playing with weird filters. And then the other half are me actually giving advice for photographers and creatives. And like, this is not cohesive, but it’s me. So
Sandra Henderson 32:51
exactly. I actually, I did my very first, like lip thinking audio reels after I wrapped up the podcast with you. I was like, I already had my hair and makeup done and everything. So I was like, You know what, this is a perfect time. Yeah, so yeah, it’s been a couple hours doing that, and batch recorded a bunch of them. I’ve only posted one. But that’s the great thing about that drafts folder. It’d be like the day that I don’t feel like doing anything. I’ll just throw one of those on there.
John Mansfield 33:18
That is the best thing that you can just batch, you know, five or six of those. And then you don’t have to think about it for a while. Like oh, yeah, I should probably post a reel. I already have one. Let me just throw a caption on there.
Sandra Henderson 33:30
Yeah, it’s perfect. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Again, it was great chatting with you. And I will definitely be sure to include the links to your social media, your Tiktok, your podcast and everything in the show notes so that everybody can come and check it out.
John Mansfield 33:43
Awesome. Sandra, thank you so much for having me on the show. Oh, you’re so welcome.
Sandra Henderson 33:48
Thank you so much for listening. You can find full show notes from today’s episode at simplysandrayvonne.ca/keepingitcandid. In the meantime, let’s connect. You can find me on Instagram and TikTok just search @simplysandrayvonne. And if you’re loving this podcast, I’d be so honoured if you’d go ahead and hit that subscribe button and leave a review. Until next time!