I have a question for you – when was the last time you reviewed your engagement session or wedding photography contract?!
A proper wedding photography contract should be one of the first major investments you make in your business. Even before upgrading to higher quality cameras and lenses!
Why?
Most importantly, if anything unexpected happens your contract will protect you legally. It’s also a major difference between a wedding professional and someone who is pursuing photography as a hobby.
A good wedding photography contract does a few things:
*Protects you
*Protects your client
*Sets expectations
Important Wedding Photography Contract Clauses
Of course, it’s important to note that I am NOT a lawyer. Please consult legal professionals to ensure your business is legitimately protected!
That being said, here are a few things I highly recommend you include in your wedding photography contracts:
Usage Rights – detail exactly how your clients can use their photos after they receive them. Copyright laws vary in every country, and you never want to assume that anyone is going to know what that means.
1. Rescheduling + Cancellation Policies – so many things can be learned from what it was like during the pandemic. Having rescheduling and cancellation policies in place is one of them!
2. A Safe Working Environment Clause – as wedding photographers, we interact with all sorts of people. It’s important to protect yourself and set boundaries for what type of behaviour will and will not be tolerated. Don’t forget to also include what will happen in the event a situation occurs where you or your team are unsafe. You may never have to enforce it, but it’s so important to have just in case!
I don’t book a wedding or engagement session without a contract in place at the very beginning. It gives my client information that’s so important for our time together to be successful. That’s not a step I’m ever okay with skipping!
The templates I purchased from The Legal Paige are amazing and I can’t recommend them highly enough! It is a US-based company, but Canadian and international users can change the templates as needed. They are thorough and easy to understand which I love!
Don’t feel awkward about sending contracts when you’re first starting out! And if you’ve been at this for a while now? Don’t head into another busy season without making sure they’re up-to-date with your current policies.
(Intro Music)
Welcome to Keeping it Candid – Wedding Photography Unfiltered for photographers who want to keep it real. I’m your host, Sandra Henderson, international wedding and family photographer and educator with a Marie Kondo-style approach to running a business – you know, keeping things simple and getting rid of anything that doesn’t bring you joy!
More importantly, I’m a strong enneagram 3w2 who is obsessed with tacos, and my love for travelling plus navigating chronic illness life are just two of the many things that drive my passion for all things systems, workflows, and beating burnout as a business owner.
Join me twice a month for a candid, behind-the-scenes look at what it’s really like working as a wedding photographer – where I’ll give you actionable steps to take your business to the next level. Absolutely no fluff here, friends! So grab your favourite notebook and pen, and let’s dive into this week’s episode.
Hey friends! I’m back with another episode of Keeping it Candid and I know I say this every time but I really do mean it – I am SO excited to have today’s guest joining me!
No matter where you’re at in your adventure in the world of wedding photography, I strongly believe it’s never too early – or too late – to make sure your business is legally legit. And if there’s one person who can help make sure that happens, it’s Paige Griffith from The Legal Paige!
Paige is a licensed attorney who specializes in the wedding photography industry. She has an incredible shop filled with templates for everything from wedding contracts to second shooter and associate team contracts to rescheduling clauses and so much more. And even better – with a newly hired Canadian lawyer on the team, there are now Canadian contract templates available in the shop! I’m going to link some of my favourites in the Show Notes so if you’re in need of some new contracts, definitely make sure you go check that out.
I’m a long-time user of Paige’s templates and can’t tell you how much more confident I’ve felt as a business owner since I started using them. They’re well thought out, and cover anything and everything you could possibly need to make sure you and your clients are legally protected before you start this adventure of working together.
But instead of me raving about these templates for the next 30 minutes, how about we dive into this interview instead?!
Check out some of my favourite templates in the TLP shop!
Canadian Wedding Photography Contract
Canadian Second Shooter Contract
Canadian Adventure Elopement Contract
Canadian Rescheduling + Cancellation Bundle
**NOVEMBER 21ST – 28TH – THE LEGAL PAIGE’S ANNUAL BLACK FRIDAY SALE IS HAPPENING! GET 40% OFF THE ENTIRE SHOP! USE CODE SANDRA10 TO SAVE AN ADDITIONAL $10!**
Sandra: Hey Paige! Welcome, and thanks so much for joining me today!! I’m so excited to talk more but before we get to that, I’m going to hand this over to you if you want to introduce yourself a little bit and tell the listeners a little bit more about you.
Paige: Hi everyone! It’s so good to meet you virtually but through audio! Maybe one day we’ll meet in person. But I I love podcasts, it’s a way for me to just connect with people from afar. I know we all live in kind of this online, virtual world, and I am the owner and lead attorney behind The Legal Paige. We’re a legal education platform for online small businesses. So, the, you know, main point behind why I created this business was access to good legal education for creatives and small business owners who primarily run their business online and, you know, marketing through social media channels. I also started a wedding photography business and then blew up into like, you know, wedding and portrait photography business back in the day. I ran that for 8 years and so I was able to kind of marry my legal passions with my entrepreneur ones and I really found this void in the industry where people couldn’t really talk to a lawyer about the business they were running, you know, just like a basic small business lawyer really wouldn’t understand how they’re running their business, how they’re booking clients, what systems they’re using online, how their marketing on social media, like I said previously. So, we created all kinds of free resources for entrepreneurs like yourself. We have blogs, we have a YouTube channel, we have our own podcast – The Legal Paige Podcast, if you’re looking for like a specific legal topic and you like listening to podcasts, that’s the place to find us, as well as a free online group community on Facebook. And so people are able to ask me and my legal team, 1:1 questions there in a group environment, and my legal team and I manage that. So, that is the free education side of our business. On top of that, we also sell contract templates and legal documents. So at any point in your business journey, if you need to update your contract or add in a clause to your existing contract or you’re looking for, you know, that additional short form to add to your legal document suite or legal toolkit, I like to say, then we are here for you along the way. You- remember, entrepreneurship is a journey. It’s not a destination. Things are going to change, client things are going to come up, and you’re going to need to go back to the drawing board a little bit because I know you are your own Chief Legal Officer, right? We were all the hats and our business. And so I just want to empower you to do that in a better, you know, more educated, more knowledgeable way.
Sandra: I LOVE the way that you approach creating all these resources for entrepreneurs and small-business owners. It’s really so apparent that you’re invested in that community and not approaching it with the same mentality that you would a corporation that has hundreds of employees and is pulling in millions of dollars a year. Because like you said, they definitely have their own nuances and their own, like, ebbs and flows and different strategies that they need. And that has been very apparent in my time working with your contract templates and being a part of the community. Side note – if you guys are not in Paige’s Facebook Community, you definitely need to go join – you’ll find the link for that in my show notes. I’ve learned so much the last couple of years. I joined the community during the beginning of the pandemic, and let me tell you, having a space of other people who just understood what we were going through as business owners was huge. So thank you for creating that space and for creating these templates for entrepreneurs who are not necessarily always able to have a lawyer on retainer when they’re first starting out.
Paige: Of course, I love helping, and thank you for saying that! Such kind words. I love our community, whether that’s, you know, in the Facebook group and that’s just more business owners, you guys, it’s really nice. We ask questions, it’s very collegial, like people aren’t judgy. Everyone is very kind, we monitor it heavily so it stays that way! And it’s really the only time, like, you can ask one of them questions to me just because of, you know, attorney-client privilege and things along those lines. It was it was a way for me to like talk to everyone in a more just easy space versus you feeling like you had to pay for an attorney to get help, right. I don’t- I know we don’t all have that type of expendable income in. Like you said, we’re not corporations! Like, we don’t have legal departments, we don’t have in-house counsel. We don’t have the ability to spend thousands and thousands of dollars on a legal retainer. So that’s why I do what I do, and it’s, it’s been so fun over the past, four to five years, growing The Legal Paige, and being able to reach more and more entrepreneurs each and every day.
Sandra: Oh ya I can imagine! And as someone who is based in Canada, I was so excited over the last year when you started launching Canadian templates in your store. When I was using your US law templates it just took like a little bit of tweaking with the help of a lawyer, but Canadians are definitely happy to see a little bit less work on our plate and just being able to access those templates! But speaking of – if someone purchases templates from your shop and they are making those modifications, do you recommend that those modifications be done with the help of a licensed lawyer? Or are they written in such a way that you can just input your information and they’re good to go from there?
Paige: Yeah, great question. So as a lawyer, I’m going to answer this with, it depends. So, so fun for all of you listening! First and foremost, we draft our contract templates, and with the help of a Canadian lawyer that we now have on board – she is phenomenal! She has really helped it be like a one-and-done for you, right. We want to be able to press the easy button and just get ‘em up and running for your business, like, within 20 to 30 minutes of you downloading it. So, it’s pretty simple. In terms of just going in, we handhold you through the process when you open the document, there’s memos on the sides, there’s like highlighted information in yellow. We tell you what to put there and where to put it! I always say it depends because, of course, as a lawyer, I need to disclaim, ya, there are some things I really don’t want you touching in the contract. Such as language that you don’t even know what it means because it’s in legal, speak or legalese, as we like to say in the lawyer world. If you’re confused about what it means, please don’t touch that clause because it’s in there for a reason and really, lawyers who are well-versed and experienced in contract law are the ones that should be modifying those types of clauses. And the good news is, is like I said, we hand hold you. We’re not going to tell you to modify that clause. You will see, I call them specialized clauses related to your specific unique industry, right? Like if you’re a wedding photography, the delivery and, like, edits of image clause, right, a retouching clause, an archiving clause for online galleries. Those don’t have legal speak in them. They don’t have legal terms in them. It’s just all about your business policies and on the side, and we walk you through this, we will tell you, like, modify this to your business practices. So those are the ones you absolutely can tweak yourself and as things come up, like I said, in your business, you’re going to want to tweet those certain clauses pertaining to you know, a client sticky situation that popped up or there was confusion from a client on something or you’re like, oh I should probably add in a heftier rescheduling fee because I’m getting kind of walked all over by my clients and having to reschedule 24/7. Those are all things you can modify on your own without a lawyers help. I would just caution you, the bottom part of all of our contract templates, if you have a full-length Legal Paige contract template, those are like, miscellaneous provisions or general provisions that you see in every contract, right, an entire agreement clause, a counterparts and facsimile signature clause, a severability clause, venue and jurisdiction clause – those are the clauses we do not suggest that you touch besides entering your own right, like, Province or territory or region, where things are going to occur and we’ll tell you where to put that. But you’ll know. If it’s a red flag and you’re like “oooh, I shouldn’t touch this clause!” – that’s when I would suggest that you get a lawyer. But for the most part, I really want to have people be able to be their own legal department, right. That’s the whole point behind contract templates. So we try to make it as simple as possible for you to use on your own without hiring a lawyer.
Sandra: That’s so helpful, and ya the templates really are so easy to use.. And I love that you said your contracts are always changing as you learn and grow as a business owner. I remember when I was first starting out, this is pre-TLP templates or using any sort of template for that matter, I was just kind of like winging it on my own, and my husband was always saying, like, ‘you just finished your contract and then you had a session and now you’re changing your contract again’ – but you learn and you grow and you want to make sure that you’re protected as are going forward so that you don’t run into these hurdles and roadblocks again going forward.
Paige: Yeah. I told people, you know, every year is kind of a good time line for you to do a DIY contract audit for yourself. I think during the winter season in offseason, especially for photographers in the wedding industry and event industry is a really good time to do this. Where, not only are you looking at your finances and then you’ve got to get like all that in order, you should be looking at all those back-end systems including your contracts and just being like ‘what happened this year? What questions came up? What things irked me as a service provider? Is there something I can make more clear in my contract? And we have really good resources, you guys, at TheLegalPaige.com, for you to do a DIY contract audit every single year. You know, if every year is still a little bit, a little bit, like “ah!” and your stomach is rumbling and your, your heart is beating a little bit faster, it gives you some panic – every two years is fine as well, but just don’t wait for you know, five, ten years down the road for you to be like ‘oh I should probably revise my contract’ because at that point it’s a little too late and you haven’t set some clear boundaries for upcoming clients.
Sandra: Yeah, that’s so true. And I think, after the last couple years, small business owners as a whole, but definitely wedding photographers, are seeing more than ever how important it is to have all of those bases covered and update them frequently so that you’re not stuck in a situation where… Well, hopefully, none of us ever have to go through another pandemic again, but if we do like, that’s not the time you want to be finding out that there’s some holes in your contract.
Paige: Yeah. It’s been a, it’s been an interesting few years and I always tell people now looking back, right, we’ve had more than a couple of years, we’re at, oh my gosh, we’re almost at 2.5-3 (years) for some of you listening to this kind of at the end of 2022, but we- we kind of need to approach what has happened over the past few years as a silver lining, right? We as business owners have more laser focus on our contracts than ever before. As do your clients! And you need to remember that’s reciprocated. It’s a two-way street, your contracts, being signed by you and all parties involved. So your clients are looking at contracts and probably have a little bit more gusto for contract negotiations than they did in the past. Because they now know like, ‘oh, I need to look at these. Like, I can’t just scroll and sign on the dotted line. Like, these are important that they have impacted me over the past couple of years.’ So take that approach as well, right? Like if your clients are seriously looking at your contracts, you need to be looking at your contracts even more. Like, at least, two to three times more than your clients do.
Sandra: Yeah. Absolutely, that’s so important. Now, speaking of clauses and all the things that we’ve had to navigate over the last few years, do you think that there any clauses within any given contract that are significantly more important for wedding photographers now than they were, say, back in 2019?
Paige: Oh yeah! Okay, here’s the list, everybody! First and foremost – force majeure Clause, not a surprise I would start with that! Make sure your force majeure Clause is super clear that was the number one cause, right, that everyone was trying to invoke March, April, and May of 2020, and we were all like, “oh my gosh! What does our contract actually say in relation to a force majeure event?!” and they just weren’t super clear. And here’s the thing, like, it’s nobody’s fault. We’ve never experienced this before. And so, lawyers were going back to the drawing board and courts were trying to interpret what force moves are actually meant in the face of a pandemic. So, we live and we learn, as we do as entrepreneurs, and your force majeure Clause needs to 1) have language surrounding what a force majeure event is, K. What is an act of God? It is an unforeseeable unpredictable event that makes it impossible to perform. That is KEY. You need those words in your force majeure Clause because now covid is not unpredictable and unforeseeable, so it is not a force majeure event anymore. And then you need to explain what happens when somebody has like a force majeur situation happen to them, right, like if a hurricane comes through. We see this South all the time. We just saw it really badly in Florida, in the United States, with the hurricane that recently came through and force majeure was invoked yet again. And who is the impacted party, then your force majeure Clause just needs to explain like notice, right? If you’re impacted by a force majeure event, how, like, how do you give notice to the other party? And then this is really important – And if anything away from this episode, I would hope you take this – at the end of your force majeure Clause, this was not in any contract prior to the pandemic – What happens with fees paid?! What happens to the contract? Like okay, you can terminate, that’s what a force majeure Clause says. It’s like it’s not a breach of contract if something like this impacts of party from non-performance. But then what? Okay, so they don’t perform. Is the contract ripped up? Is it void? What happens to fees paid? And I always say fees paid stay on credit and then they can be utilized in a certain amount of time, post-force majeure event. So it’s like, you’re pressing pause on the current contract, you’re keeping fees paid, you’re allowing the parties to not perform. It’s no big deal, right? It’s not a breach, but we are going to resume performance at a later date. So the force majeure Clause, absolutely number one.
Second, a couple clauses, I’m just going to briefly go through these ‘cause I could obviously go down the rabbit hole here, but Cancellation and rescheduling clauses – you guys, make those really clear. I want you to have a cancellation by client Claus. I want you to have a rescheduling by client Claus. So those are voluntary reschedules or cancellations on your clients part, and then a separate Clause when you need to cancel as the service provider – and that needs to be really clear as well. Like, what circumstances would arise whereby you have to kind of back out, or change your performance under the contract. And all of those we have in all of our full-length contracts and we have a la carte clauses as well. If you guys are listening to me and you’re like, “oh, gosh, I need to beef up that clause,” don’t worry, we have a la carte clauses. You can copy and paste them into your existing contract.
The very, very final one that I just wanted to quickly touch on Is – people are like do I still need to cover the clause in my contract? Well, I don’t want you to have a covid cause that’s like “here’s covid, if it happens, like, this is what we’re going to do. I actually want you to have like a no-holds bar Claus related to covid scenarios. And I call it an acknowledgement of covid clause, and no rescheduling. We all remember we were like, kind of trying to help our clients through the process, give them endless rescheduling and cancellations and we were just trying to like help, right? We were trying to help. Everyone is trying to help everyone. We’re all in the same boat at the same time. But now, like I said with force majeure, and these go hand in hand. If covid isn’t force majeure event anymore, but it’s still happening each and every day and it’s still something we need to be mindful of, and your clients are going to have questions about, right? Like what happens if I contract covid? Or what happens if you contract covid, you know? Usually you probably don’t want to go out and about and there’s a mandatory quarantine still in place if you contract it, maybe not for like close contacts anymore. But if you do, like, you can’t perform. You shouldn’t perform, right? Just for health reasons. So is that happens and if an acknowledgement of covid really means, like, what are your business policies surrounding reschedules and cancellations and so on and so forth. It’s a – it’s essentially like an assumption of risk clause, is what I tell people. It’s, it’s in relation to covid, but it’s saying like your clients assume the risk of planning this service with you in the middle of a pandemic and they know that you can contract covid or they could be a close contact or things are going to happen. And in those scenarios they don’t get to just have a complimentary reschedule, right? Like they have put themselves in a position where they may get covid and if they do that that’s not- that shouldn’t be on you. Your business shouldn’t bear that burden. Of course, if you get covid you need to like, right, reschedule do everything you can possible to serve these clients well. But, yeah, those are those are like the big five clauses. I know I went through them really fast but make sure those are in your contract. I would say most people have those pretty well fleshed out in their contracts nowadays.
Sandra: Oh my gosh, that was so helpful. I hope that everyone listening is taking notes, I know I was the whole time that page was talking! If you weren’t then give this episode another run-through and make sure you write all those down because that was absolute gold. That will be so helpful, especially as a wedding photographers are heading into engagement season and getting ready for next year’s wedding season, it’s so important to have all of that in there.
So maybe I should have asked this question before we got started talking about different causes and things like that, but when I connect with photographers who are in their first couple of years of business or in the industry, I hear a lot of people say things like, “you know, I’m just doing this part-time, I’m not professional, I’m still new. I don’t need a contract yet.” and I would love to hear from a lawyer’s perspective, how you feel about that, and what your thoughts are on people saying things like, they don’t need a contract.
Paige: Yeah, I mean, I think you need a contract, like, the minute you start anything. If there’s any exchange of like funds whatsoever, you have liability and risk attached to that, and people are going to be more concerned if something bad were to happen or something to displease them, right? Or Services weren’t rendered up to their standard because they exchanged money with you. So absolutely, if you’re doing anything, I don’t care if it’s a $50 session, I don’t care if it’s a, you know, $5,000 wedding – you have to have a contract in place. I also say for, like, family and friends – even then you need a contract. Honestly, even more, because they are going to ask you to bend over backwards for them, and like, really try to like, lots of times like milk you because there wasn’t a contract in place. Like they’re like, oh well, they’re my friend or they’re my family and they’ll do above and beyond what they do Normally for clients because it’s me. So setting those boundaries. Contracts are all about setting boundaries. Don’t put yourself in a position where you never had any boundaries and then you have nothing to fall back on or like have a leg to stand on so to speak.
In terms of your, you know, the the only thing that I would differentiate here, is like a wedding and an event if your wedding photographer listening, there is 1) Higher emotions involved in that, 2) a lot of vendors involved in that, and 3) lot of money involved in that. And with that means you need a bigger contract to protect yourself. So if you just have like a one pager document as a wedding photographer, I can guarantee legally that’s not going to cut it. So you know, do your due diligence. I always, I always want to press upon people that contracts are even more important than your website and your Instagram account, like, way more important! And I know the other things are shiny and they’re important for marketing reasons, but your marketing means nothing if your business is gone and you didn’t have a contract in place to protect you from the get-go. So I would just say it’s an essential business overhead investment that you need to make and the beauty of it is, is it gives back time and time again for years and years to come when you get a sold contract in place from the beginning.
Sandra: Absolutely. I could not agree with you more! I think to a certain extent, it’s more important to have proper contracts and just be legally protected than it is to have the best camera gear that’s out there. You can learn how to use camera gear that’s a few years old to the best of its ability and still deliver an amazing product, but like you said, if your business is falling apart then that camera, and having the best gear on the market, doesn’t really mean anything. If you’re having to constantly put out fires and having people threaten legal action and things like that, that’s where your energy ends up being focused instead of doing things you actually love doing. There are just there’s so many reasons why making your business legally legit and having those contracts from the very beginning is so so important.
Paige: Yeah. I mean, if your photographer listening and you’re looking at that next shiny, like, 85 Mm 1.2 L Series lens K, and you’re like, I really need this. It’s going to up-level my, you know, portrait sessions. Okay. But what if you only actually took that lens out of the bag for very specific portrait sessions? And, you know, you’re still married to your 35 or 50, right? Or 24-70? Y’all know what I’m talking about here! We’re all photographers! I – you know, maybe you don’t use that for every session, but guess what? It cost you probably five times more than a contract, and your contract you use for every session because to book The Client, they have to sign the contract! So just think about it in terms of like, what you’re going to utilize most of our business overhead. What’s going to benefit you the most? Yes those things are great, right? It might up level your photography a little bit. It’s going to give you a little bit more bokeh and like that, that really yummy background. It’s going to be awesome! I love my 85! But at the end of the day, if I were deciding between that purchase and an upgraded, awesome contract, I would hands down, suggest you go with the contract, because you’re probably actually going to book better clients with your contract and then you can increase your pricing and boom – I’ve got you your 85mm in a couple of months.
Sandra: I was just going to say that I know for me when I started using more robust and professional contracts, it made me a more confident business owner in every situation. Whether it be at handling something with a client, a good, or bad situation, but also like you said, raising my prices having that just legal protection behind me and made me feel like I was totally protected and heading in the right direction.
Paige: Yeah, a little story for you guys here. It’s one of my favourites to tell. I once had someone who used our contract templates and they were a wedding photographer. It was like more of a high-end wedding. They were in a bid scenario with the big wedding planner that was doing this big wedding. It was, you know, a high-level person’s wedding and in their, you know, they have to send over contracts and planner in these people’s legal agents are reviewing contracts and they came back and told me that they won the bid because they had the most professional, robust contract where not only were they protected, but their clients were protected as well. So they booked like a $10,000- $15,000 wedding above the other, you know, colleagues that we’re submitting bids for this particular wedding because of their good contract. So I know there’s some misnomers out there in the industry that’s like, ‘oh long contracts are like off-putting to clients’ and that is Not the case. It is literally clearly the opposite. Clients are going to thank you for having a very easy to read contract that really covers every scenario possible and is also two-sided, right. It needs to protect you, I always say it’s your contract, so it should be protecting you a bit more. But if you have rights, role,s and responsibilities for your clients under the contract, too, there going to be like I want a book with this person, they know what they’re doing and you’re saying that standard right. Your reputation with working with them from the beginning, they’re going to be like ‘I expect this level of professionalism from this particular wedding vendor and I know I’m going to get it because they’re showing it to me from the beginning.’
Sandra: So after this after listening to this episode, what is one simple take away that wedding photographers could do tomorrow to make sure that their businesses are legally legit?
Paige: Okay, I’m going to have you do a little DIY contract audit with me. Kay? So write down these three things. The first thing I want you to do is get out your contract and like, print it out. Don’t just look at it on a screen K, do that for me, step one.
Step two – We’re going to read through our contract, kay?! We’re going to look for sentences or language that’s confusing. If it’s confusing to you, I can doubley guarantee it’s confusing to your clients, and clear that up, kay. Is there an easier way you can phrase that sentence? Take out a few words plain language in English, it doesn’t need- the more confusing a contract is, it’s not better, it’s WAY worse. So make it clear and precise and to the point and then number three, I want you to organize your contract a little bit better. So I want you to put the most important Clauses at the top and just you can rearrange things. It’s totally fine. Like the arrangement of contracts actually doesn’t really matter, except for when I’m telling you, right now. Important causes need to go towards the top because when we live in and online world and we’re sending contacts to people online, they are more… They’re, they’re looking at causes more in-depth at the beginning of a contract, and then they start scrolling more quickly to the end to sign. So I want you to have like your fee and retainer clause, your cancellation and rescheduling clauses, clauses related to your specific services and business policies – all ll near the top, k, those specific Clauses related to your business and then of course you’re going to get into like intellectual property and like boilerplate language clauses at the bottom.
Organize it for most important to like, what you expect in a contract. I don’t call them least important because they are still important Clauses at the bottom, but it’s like more expectant clauses at the bottom that your clients have seen many many, many times and they know what they, you know, entail at the bottom.
And then the last thing is, once you organize all of those, this is also in step 3. I want you to number your causes, in order sequentially. And then I want you to bold an underline all of the headings. This makes it really clear to your clients, if they need to go back to the contract and look at, okay, what happens if I need to voluntarily cancel? They can look for that clause heading and they know what your business policy is without having to, like, decipher through three pages of like, you know, 400 to 500 words per page. Like they don’t know where your business policy is if you haven’t organized it for them to easily understand. And it also allows you to easily point to a clause, like, well, you know, if you do want additional edits you can see clause 12 where you agreed to this as my additional editing fee for those additional revisions right after/during the post processing with photographer. So that’s what I would suggest. That is a really good like, step-by-step approach to be more legally Legit by the end of this podcast episode. I mean, that’s going to take you a little bit of time, give yourself an hour or two, but that’s my, my best suggestion moving forward. And you just going to head into next year, feeling way more protected and also knowledgeable about what your contract says, ‘cause you’ve actually read it!
Sandra: Ok, that was amazing!! I have officially added a contract audit to my to-do list for off-season. And if you were just listening to that homework that Paige gave you and you are thinking,my contracts need some HELP, you can take things one step further, make it even easier for yourself and head over to Paige’s shop because she has a sale coming up for Black Friday! Paige, I’m going to let you tell the listeners a little bit more about that.
Paige: Yeah, so I can just press the easy button for you and you don’t have to do any of that, which is nice! And you can purchase and like, uplevel your contract with us. So, over Black Friday week, we are having one of our biggest sales of the year. The entire contract job will be 40% off, and there’s no code needed. You can just go there and grab all of the legal goodies that you need to add to your legal tool kit. Again, if you have a Contract and you’re like ‘man, there’s a lot of things I’m missing in it.’ Now would be the time just to get it done for you, instead of you having to like copy and paste clauses into your existing contact. You can just have one that has all of these in there for you and it’s written by myself in my legal team here in the United States or a Canadian lawyer as well that we now have on the team. As well as I know, you are a very valuable affiliate for TLP, and so you guys, I do know that she is going to share her additional discount with you all and she’ll be offering that over our sale week as well. So it’s like a double win for you, you get discounts on the shop and then you can get an additional amount off your total purchase.
Sandra: Yeah, definitely. Make sure you check out the show notes for some links and hint-hint, there maaayyy even be an extra little discount waiting for you there that you can use during the sale! I’ll also be sharing all the things on Instagram and things like that as well. And, like Paige mentioned, they have a Canadian lawyer on the team, so it definitely make sure you pop into the shop and check out the Canadian templates and just get started on the right foot for 2023 as you head into your next busy season.
Paige: Yeah, we cannot wait to get you a legally legit you guys, and again, if you have any Questions related to, “Hey Paige, this is what I’m looking for” or you know, “I’ve had this scenario pop up,” I can point you in the right direction of a document you need or what contract you need, or what Clause you need, I am here to help you. So please feel free to reach out to me. You can do it on Instagram, you can do it through your email. We are here to help. That is what I am in this business for and want to do for you heading into, you know, the year that’s to come. I cannot wait to see what you do with your business.
Sandra: And there’s always people in your Facebook group as well that are always happy to recommend different Clauses and purchases in the shop and things like that. So that’s always another great option as well. I am all about online communities and I know some people are over Facebook, but I love a good Facebook community. So I’m always here to recommend that to you.
Paige: Yeah. I hope you guys join! Again, it’s The Legal Paige Community on Facebook, super simple. Type it into the search bar, you answer a couple questions, we just got to make sure you’re actually a business owner and then you can just sit in and social listen and, you know, see what people are asking and then when you have a question, you can pop it in there.
Sandra: Yeah, it’s so awesome. And speaking of social media, where else can everybody find you?
Ya, I’m The Legal Paige, P-A-I-G-E, it’s a play on words, that’s my business name on social media, Twitter, Instagram, we have a YouTube channel as well, and then thelegalpaige.com so it’s pretty easy to find me.
Sandra: Awesome – everyone, go give her a follow. Her content is packed with legal advice and the most relatable Reels around haha. Well thank you so much again for joining me, Paige. This was an amazing conversation. I am so excited for the listeners to go and make themselves more legally protected for their next wedding season!
Paige: Thanks guys.
Sandra: I was honestly taking notes during that whole interview because even though I use Paige’s templates for my contracts, I think it’s so important to thoroughly understand every clause – why it’s so important, what it all means, so I hope no matter what your contract situation is in your business, you found something to take away from today’s episode!
The Legal Paige’s annual Black Friday sale is kicking off on Monday where you’ll get 40% off her entire shop all week long – and, if you pop over to the Show Notes, you’ll find a little something extra to go along with it!
If you happen to catch this episode after the Black Friday sale has ended, get on Paige’s email list and join her Facebook community so you can stay up to date on future sales!
Before I go – next week I’ve got a special series coming to the podcast! The Local Vendor Series is a five-part series showcasing some of the top wedding vendors in the London, Ontario area. They joined me to talk about the importance of creating a ‘dream team’ environment with vendors on wedding day and how wedding photographers can serve our industry colleagues to strengthen those relationships. This was one of the first ideas I had when I started brainstorming for this podcast at the beginning of the year and I couldn’t be happier with how it call came together!
The first episode drops on November 21st!
(Outro Music)
Thanks so much for listening to Keeping It Candid: Wedding Photography Unfiltered with Sandra Henderson! You can find full show notes from today’s episode at simplysandrayvonne.ca/keepingitcandid. In the meantime – let’s connect! You can find me on Instagram @simplysandrayvonne, and on Facebook in the Wedding Photography Unfiltered community! If you’re loving this podcast, I’d be so honoured if you’d go ahead and hit that subscribe button and leave me a review!
Until next time!
Check out some of my favourite templates in the TLP shop!
Canadian Wedding Photography Contract
Canadian Second Shooter Contract
Canadian Adventure Elopement Contract
Canadian Rescheduling + Cancellation Bundle
**NOVEMBER 21ST – 28TH – THE LEGAL PAIGE’S ANNUAL BLACK FRIDAY SALE IS HAPPENING! GET 40% OFF THE ENTIRE SHOP! USE CODE SANDRA10 TO SAVE AN ADDITIONAL $10!**
About Paige
Paige is a lawyer, business consultant, photographer, and entrepreneur. Her company, The Legal Paige can help set you up for success as a business owner through contract templates and educational resources! It’s her mission to empower small business owners to feel confident and protected in their businesses.
Paige Griffith from The Legal Paige
Website | https://www.thelegalpaige.com/
IG | @thelegalpaige
YouTube | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZ6POiCTWgnStvuVdUY_XZg
More of our favourite podcast episodes:
Episode 13 – The Secret To A Great Client Experience with Katelyn Workman
(Intro Music)
Welcome to Keeping it Candid – Wedding Photography Unfiltered for photographers who want to keep it real. I’m your host, Sandra Henderson, international wedding and family photographer and educator with a Marie Kondo-style approach to running a business – you know, keeping things simple and getting rid of anything that doesn’t bring you joy!
More importantly, I’m a strong enneagram 3w2 who is obsessed with tacos, and my love for travelling plus navigating chronic illness life are just two of the many things that drive my passion for all things systems, workflows, and beating burnout as a business owner.
Join me twice a month for a candid, behind-the-scenes look at what it’s really like working as a wedding photographer – where I’ll give you actionable steps to take your business to the next level. Absolutely no fluff here, friends! So grab your favourite notebook and pen, and let’s dive into this week’s episode.
Hey friends! Welcome back to another episode of keeping it candid! Depending on when you listen to this episode, it may have been Halloween last night – I dressed up like my *favourite* Disney character – Stitch from Lilo + Stitch! I was in a 6ft tall inflatable costume and it was seriously too much fun! The kids in my neighbourhood were so excited to give me high fives and hugs. I think it’s going to have to become an annual trick-or-treat tradition!
And now that it’s all over, it means it’s officially November and honestly, I don’t know how that happened. Wasn’t wedding season just getting started?!
If you’re anything like me, the end of the year brings a LOT of reflection about the good, the bad, and the ugly during busy season, what I loved, what changes I need to make, and how I can keep showing up to serve my clients while also setting boundaries to keep me happy and healthy – and one thing that’s really top-of-mind for me right now is Client Experience.
That’s why I’m SO excited for today’s guest!
My friend Katelyn Workman, a wedding photographer and educator based in the Virginia area, joined me to talk all about how creating a great client experience means more than just showing up and taking great photos. We talked about how important it is to build relationships with our clients, ways to add a little bit of fun throughout your time with them, and the kind of impact it has on your business in the long run.
Katelyn shared some amazing insight and ideas, so if you don’t already have your notebook and pen ready, hit pause and grab them because you’re not going to want to miss a thing!
Sandra: Thank you so much for joining, I’m so excited to have you on the podcast today, and it’s great to get a chance to chat with you outside of when we first met! Um, for everybody that doesn’t know, we were both at The Graceful Gathering conference back in June. It was the first chance that we had to meet, and you were lovely. You did the, like, I absolutely loved your, um, talk and all the tips that you gave for posing were absolutely amazing. So I’m so excited to have you here.
Katelyn: Thank you! I’m excited to be here!
Sandra: Oh, good. I’m so glad. Well, before we get started, why don’t you give us a little bit of information about who you are, what you do, and um, where we can find you online?
Katelyn: Sure. I am Katelyn Workman. Um, I live right on the border of Bluefield, West Virginia and Virginia. It’s like this tiny town, I say it’s kind of like Stars Hollow, um, no one’s ever heard of it! But um, yeah, so I have a two year old and then I have a 10 year old that we adopted through foster care, um, and she’s kind of why I started my business as a wedding photographer was to have more time with her. And, um, yeah, weddings are what I love so I was really excited to just get to share with you guys, um, some things that we do and some things that we love about, um, serving our clients!
Sandra: That’s awesome. I love that so much! I love hearing different, um, like family stories. Being a stepmom myself, I love talking to other step moms and adoptive moms and foster moms and like, just seeing how all the different family dynamics come together. It’s just so nice to see.
Katelyn: Yes! Well, I love sharing because I didn’t plan to be a wedding photographer, and sometimes I envy people who built their businesses before they had kids or who don’t have kids. But the truth is that I wouldn’t have a business if it weren’t for her. I bought – my husband bought my camera for me to take pictures of her, so that’s kind of how everything started.
Sandra: Oh, that’s so sweet. I love that. Um, so you mentioned that that was the reason why you started your business and what kind of like brought you to the point where you want to serve and create a great experience for your clients, and I’m so excited to dive into this topic of client experience more with you! Um, why do you think it’s so important to not just create (stammer) a great experience for your clients, but to also be super intentional about the things that you are doing with them?
Katelyn: Yes. Okay. So first of all, I have to throw this disclaimer out there that I don’t love taking pictures. That’s not what I’m super passionate about. It is connecting with our clients. Like I love people and I love getting to serve our couples, and so, that’s why, that’s why I love creating a great experience! But I think the number one reason is for your clients, obviously, because they deserve that. They deserve a great experience. Um, as wedding photographers, we have like such an important job because how we treat them on their wedding day and throughout their whole experience, like how they feel on their wedding day, they’re going to remember that when they look back at their pictures.
I remember that my wedding photographer was late! And um, she got there and I just felt super awkward. And we did a first look, and I hadn’t communicated with her at all beforehand. We didn’t do an engagement session, which was my fault, but we hadn’t communicated with her, didn’t feel comfortable with her, and during our first look, I just felt super awkward because I didn’t know like what to do or what to expect. And I just remember feeling stressed, and like when I look back at those particular pictures of our first look, I’m like, I know that we were awkward. We felt awkward. Um, and so I think your clients deserve to have an amazing experience and we’re asking them to invest a lot in us. So I think that as wedding photographers, we need to do a lot more than just show up and take their pictures and leave.
Sandra: I totally agree.
Katelyn: Yes. Um, and also trust is just so important. Like, I didn’t trust my photographer because I didn’t really know her. Um, and so if you start from the very, very beginning of their experience… So I think that your client experience starts from the minute that they inquire, really from the minute that they look at your website. They should feel welcome there. And, um, they should feel like it’s easy to talk to you from the very beginning, and you should be very intentional with how you communicate with them from the very, that very first step.
Um, and as you do that, you’re building their trust so that when you get to the wedding day, they already trust you and everything else. If there’s problems, nothing is stressful because you’ve already created that intentional client experience from the beginning.
Sandra: Yes, that’s so important ‘cause you and I both know anything can happen on a wedding day. There’s tons of things that are expected, tons of things that are unexpected. So it’s so important to be able to continue serving a great experience no matter what comes your way on the wedding day.
Katelyn: Yes, exactly. So I think that’s the first reason, is just your clients. They deserve that, obviously.
Sandra: Mh-mmm.
Katelyn: And then second, um, your business deserves that. Um, if you have a terrible experience, you’re not gonna have a business for very long. Um, I think that you need to stand out. It seems like everywhere you turn around there’s another wedding photographer. And so if you want to have a thriving business, then you need to have a reason for people to hire you, to choose you. And so that comes from your client experience. You wanna create connections with your couples so that when their friends are getting married, they say, “you have to have Katelyn Workman!” You know, you have to have this experience that I had. And just showing up and taking pictures and leaving is not going to create that, like, raving fan that you need to grow your business.
Um, I think that you’re, that word of mouth is your greatest tool, and having a great reputation is the most important part of growing your business and having a great client experience is the best way to do that, I think.
Sandra: Yes, I totally agree with you! In all honesty, I learned that lesso- lesson a little bit the hard way in earlier years of my business where I was just so burnt out because I was overworking myself and my priority was not in creating a great client experience, but just taking on as much business as I could.
And it ended up with, like, me returning galleries late and missing, you know, if someone submitted an order for an album or print, like missing something that was supposed to be included. All these little things that kind of just, like, cascaded, and it wasn’t the experience that I wanted my clients to have. It wasn’t the service that I wanted my business to be delivering, and it really just totally reframed my perspective on what the important part is.
And you had said earlier that your passion isn’t even necessarily in taking the photos, but in making, like making connections and making sure people are having a great experience. And I resonate with that so much cause I really do think that is such a key to the longevity of our businesses.
Katelyn: Yes, it all works together so well, ou know! If you serve your clients well, then they’ll bring more people to you just like them, and then you serve those people well and it’s just kind of a cycle. And I think that’s what causes businesses to last. I think if you’re doing what you were talking about and you’re trying to do way too much, you’re not serving them well and you’re not serving yourself well, so your business is not gonna last.
Sandra: Exactly. It definitely all comes full circle that if you are giving that great client experience and you’re getting great feedback, you’re feeling confident, you’re excited, and then you’re able to just like keep going. And the same goes for the negative side of that too. So I personally am much happier and my clients are much happier now that we’re focusing on the more positive side of that cycle.
Katelyn: Yes haha
Sandra: Um, what kind of impact do you think making this intentional client experience has made on your business?
Katelyn: I think that – I know that it is why I have a business. Um, I wouldn’t have clients referring their friends to me if I didn’t have this very intentional client experience, and I don’t think that I would be fulfilled. Like I said, I, I do love being a photographer, but if I was just taking their pictures and didn’t even really know their names or know anything about them, I just don’t think I would be fulfilled. Um, I am super extroverted. I’m a seven on the Enneagram if you guys know about that, and I just love people, and so it’s just so much more fulfilling to me that I have real connections. You know, I have brides who, I took their pictures three years ago and they’re like sending me their baby pictures, you know? Um, or like coming back for family pictures and, you know, coming back to our cookout at our house and things like that. And so I just think that… Um, not only is it growing my business in that way, but it is fulfilling me as a person.
Sandra: Yeah. That’s so amazing. I love that. Was there anything unexpected, that kind of like surprised you along the way as you started perfecting your client experience?
Katelyn: Yes. So I have noticed recently, in paying attention to, um, just conversations that I’m having with other photographers, is a lot of times I’m hearing like of these bad experiences and you know, well, what did you do if you had a difficult groom? Or, what would you do in this situation? Or, like, people just telling horror stories and I don’t have those. Um, I had one negative experience in the very beginning, um, before I did all of these things, right. Um, but since I have been so intentional with marketing to the right clients and just serving them well from the very beginning to the end, I just don’t have bad experiences because I’m making them feel comfortable, so I don’t have those “bad grooms” because they feel great and they’re having fun. So they’ll do whatever I ask them to because they trust me. Um, and I just think that there’s that mutual respect and trust that, um, just creates a, a great experience for both of us.
Sandra: Yeah, absolutely. That’s so important to have that mutual respect. It goes along to say that, like that client experience, it does have to do with respecting our clients, their time, the money that they’re spending and things like that, but it really does go both ways. And I’m always about looking for like, things that are mutually beneficial. It’s, it, it makes it a lot easier to like keep up with them and make them a part of your system when you’re getting something and not just constantly pouring out of yourself.
Katelyn: Yes, it all works together.
Sandra: Yeah, for sure. Um, so what are some of the – your favourite parts of the experience that you’ve created for your clients? Are there any like specific things that you get really excited about once you’ve booked them throughout your time together?
Katelyn: Um, gifting haha because my love language is gifts. Um..
Sandra: Me too!
Katelyn: And so you don’t have. That doesn’t, it’s not true for everyone. Um, I think you have to look at like who you are as a person and how you can serve them well.
But I love giving gifts and so we give gifts throughout the whole process and I keep adding more things haha and I maybe don’t need to do all that I do. Um, but even things like, I’ll send out a little, I just started eating this this year where I send out a little self care box like a month before the wedding to the bride and it just has like little, like, bath bombs and things like that because I was noticing I did a lot in the beginning and then a lot, you know, during the wedding day, but I didn’t have like a connection point kind of in between their engagement session and their wedding so I started sending that just to kind of remind them like, I’m here and I love you and I’m taking care of you and you deserve a little bit of a break. Um, so I love doing that. And then I have just started doing album reveals in my house! And I love hosting.
We have a very tiny house that is a hundred years old haha lots of character, so it’s nothing fancy, but I love just how intimate that is to just like, have them in my house and, like, make them a charcuterie board and like really get to be the, be with them through that. Um, and we do have a lot of couples that travel, so if they are not able to come in, then I’ll send them a, like a charcuterie in a box type thing for them to still have a special moment when they view their pictures for the first time in their house. Because I had found that I was doing all of these things that were so intentional, and then after the wedding day, I would send a link in an email that they might get while they’re like, at targets scrolling through!
So now I tell them exactly when it’s gonna be and I send them that little gift, or I have them over that way that they, they get to still have an experience when they see their pictures too.
Sandra: I love that so much. That’s so sweet to have them over and like make a little charcuterie board and things like that. I love that.
Katelyn: Yeah! And it’s the same, it’s like so fulfilling for both because you get to see that they love their pictures, you know? Cause they get busy. They may not remember to say like, Oh I loved this one, or whatever. But you get to see like them crying at their pictures and it’s so special.
Sandra: Oh, I love that because yeah, I’m not sure if you feel this way as well, but if I send out a gallery and I don’t hear back, they could love their photos, but I instantly assume that they hate them.
Katelyn: You think they hate every single one!
Sandra: Yeah, exactly! Like that must be the only reason why they didn’t reply.
Katelyn: Right.
Sandra: Um, and you mentioned that you do a cookout – I would love to hear more about that!
Katelyn: Yes. Okay, so we are not very consistent with it haha ‘cause um, it’s been covid in the past two years and like last year we had to cancel and things like that. Um, but it’s just, we like have them come over to our house and hang out and it’s very casual, very laid back, but it’s just a chance for them to come and hang out and like our kids are there, and, um, just because our couples really do feel like family by the end of the experience and so we love to just continue creating those connection points.
Sandra: Oh, that’s so nice. That must be so much fun to get a chance to reconnect with people.
Katelyn: Yes, and it’s fun too because like a lot of our clients know each other because, you know, we’ve done sisters weddings and friends weddings and all that, so yeah, it’s really fun.
Sandra: Oh, that’s so awesome! All right, so I’ve got – I saved a big question for the last one. Um, but, would you say that you have any advice for newer photographers in the industry, or even photographers who are just looking to up-level their client experience, on like, where is the best place to get started?
Katelyn: Yes, this is a great question. I like to have a practical application when you listen to a podcast because I think sometimes when I’m listening, I listen to people ramble and then I’m like, Okay, well what do I do? Um, so here’s your practical tip. If you haven’t been listening this whole time, um, I think you need to make just a, a workflow, make a checklist. Um, so I have one that we can include in the show notes, I think!
Sandra: absolutely!
(**CLICK HERE TO GRAB KATELYN’S FREEBIE!**)
Katelyn: Yes. Okay. It’s just my wedding workflow. Um, just so you guys can kind of see an example, and this starts with, like, respond to inquiry and goes all the way down to like send an anniversary card and has every single step in between. Um, and I have found that this helps because there are so many little steps. If you don’t have your workflow like written out as a checklist for every couple, um, then you can forget things and you know, I was sometimes forgetting to send their welcome box or I was sometimes forgetting to, um, you know, send a follow up email or whatever.
Um, so I think just even if you don’t use mine, just create a very simple workflow that you can… that’s just manageable for every couple. Um, so if you don’t think that you have time to send a gift every single month, don’t put that on your workflow. But just start with something small. Like, you know what, I love – words of affirmation is my love language, so I would love to write a sweet note to my couples a month before their wedding. Um, so put that on your workflow. But just make a simple checklist that you can really follow through with every couple.
Sandra: That’s so, so great and yes, I will definitely make sure to include the link to your download so if you are listening and you wanna grab that, make sure you head over to my website and hit the show notes so that you can grab a copy because it will definitely be amazing if the, uh, talk that I saw Katelyn give at The Graceful Gathering is any like, I don’t know what the word is I’m looking for… Notion, of how it’s going to be, it’s gonna be amazing!
Katelyn: Oh, you’re so sweet!
Sandra: Awesome. Well, before we wrap things up, do you have any final thoughts that you’d like to mention or anything that you have coming up that you would love to share about?
Katelyn: Um, Yes, I have something really exciting. Um, since this is a podcast for wedding photographers, I would love to share it, um, that I am hosting a retreat, um, in March! So if you guys want details, um, all of my information will be linked. Um, or you can just go to my website, katelynworkmanphotography.com, and there’s like a little popup you can put, um, to be on my email list.
But – I’m really excited because one of the things that I love about events is just creating connections with other business owners and other photographers. I think that, um, client experience is a great way to sustain your business, but so is having connections with people because we can’t do it alone. And so that’s the whole part behind the retreat is just a chance to come together. It’s gonna be really intimate and encourage each other and have accountability, and it’s gonna be amazing! So yes, if you guys want information on that, just go to the website and thank you for letting me share about!
(**CLICK HERE TO FIND OUT MORE ABOUT THE CREATE RETREAT!**)
Sandra: Oh, of course. Yes, guys. Definitely go and check that out. I love a good like conference and retreat. The, the value that you get out of building community and just being in the same space with people who just get it is so, so invaluable and something that I wish that I had taken advantage of sooner in my business, but better late than never and I take it for like everything that it’s worth now!
Katelyn: Yes, I agree. I see the people who are not lasting in their businesses are people who work alone, um, because they get, you just get burned out and it, you can’t do everything by yourself.
Sandra: Yeah. It’s so, so true. Awesome. Well, I cannot wait to see how this retreat grows, I’m so excited for you and thank you so much again for being here! This was absolutely amazing and we’ll definitely have to have you back on the podcast in the future.
Katelyn: Yeah. Thanks so much.
Ok – can we talk about how great that interview was? I love that Katelyn is so invested in building relationships with her clients that continue beyond the actual taking of photos. How fun does her annual cookout sound?! I’m already married but I may need to find a way to become a KWP bride so I can score an invite for the next one!
I’ve been wanting to plan a big gathering for my clients for a couple of years now but thanks to the pandemic, that plan has been put on hold. Maybe next year though?! It’s my ten-year business anniversary so I’m thinking it might be perfect way to celebrate!
I also couldn’t agree more with Katelyn when she talked about how your client’s experience isn’t just about the time they’re directly interacting with you. Client experience really starts from the second someone lands on your website and has the ability to continue indefinitely into the future.
One thing that goes a long way in the very beginning of your client experience that I think gets overlooked more often than not is taking the time to make sure your text you’re including can actually be read.
If you are using a lot of script and cursive fonts, or if you’re using small lettering, it can be really difficult for so many people to read. I wear glasses, but my eyesight is really not that bad. I can see and read without my glasses on. But still, I can’t tell you how often I land on a website or even see a social media post where I have to strain to read what’s written. It’s recommended that you use at least a 16pt font when you’re including text online. It might seem large to you, the majority of us have grown up using software where the standard default size is an 11 or 12pt font, so ya, at first, it is going to seem big in comparison. But as always, we have to remember, there are all different types of people in the world and what might seem large to you may be small in comparison to someone with limited vision or who someone who is neurodivergent.
Building an inclusive business is SO important, and that goes beyond making sure the LGBTQ and BIPOC communities are represented. Which, don’t get me wrong, is super important. But a truly inclusive business considers all different types of people, which means making sure people of all abilities are able to access your services as well.
If you’re like me and already building a to-do list of things to work on during off-season, I encourage you to do a deep dive into your website and see what tweaks you can make to ensure every potential client feels welcome and has a great experience before they even have a chance to connect with you.
Then, have a little fun with it, and if it feels authentic to you, start incorporating some things like gifts and gatherings into your client’s experience along the way. Start building relationships with your clients so they start to feel more like friends, and you’ll definitely start to see a shift in how happy they are and how often they refer their own friends and family your way too!
(Outro Music)
Thanks so much for listening to Keeping It Candid: Wedding Photography Unfiltered with Sandra Henderson! You can find full show notes from today’s episode at simplysandrayvonne.ca/keepingitcandid. In the meantime – let’s connect! You can find me on Instagram @simplysandrayvonne, and on Facebook in the Wedding Photography Unfiltered community! If you’re loving this podcast, I’d be so honoured if you’d go ahead and hit that subscribe button and leave me a review!
Until next time!
Katelyn Workman Photography
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About Katelyn
Katelyn is a wedding photographer and educator from a small town on the border of West Virginia and Virginia! She started taking pictures of her foster daughter just for fun, and is now a full-time wedding photographer, educator, and – she adopted her daughter! Don’t forget to check out the Create Retreat, coming this spring!
(Intro Music)
Welcome to Keeping it Candid – Wedding Photography Unfiltered for photographers who want to keep it real. I’m your host, Sandra Henderson, international wedding and family photographer and educator with a Marie Kondo-style approach to running a business – you know, keeping things simple and getting rid of anything that doesn’t bring you joy!
More importantly, I’m a strong enneagram 3w2 who is obsessed with tacos, and my love for travelling plus navigating chronic illness life are just two of the many things that drive my passion for all things systems, workflows, and beating burnout as a business owner.
Join me twice a month for a candid, behind-the-scenes look at what it’s really like working as a wedding photographer – where I’ll give you actionable steps to take your business to the next level. Absolutely no fluff here, friends! So grab your favourite notebook and pen, and let’s dive into this week’s episode.
(Episode 011)
You know that saying, “give 110%”? Throughout my whole childhood – and I know all of my fellow millennials listening can relate to this – we were always told, give 110%. It was supposed to be a catchy way to motivate you to go above and beyond what was expected of you. It’s a mindset that’s really integrated into our thought processes as business owners, too. But if you ask me, I wholeheartedly believe it shouldn’t be. Like, let’s just cancel that saying right here and now.
In order to give 110% you can’t really have boundaries, you have to make everyone else a priority before yourself, and more often than not you’re left feeling depleted in the end. For today’s episode, I dove into this idea more in-depth with my friend Cindy from Harborview Studios.
Cindy is a luxury wedding videographer and half of the husband-and-wife team behind Harborview Studios. They’ve have been in the wedding industry serving couples since 2006, and are known for creating timeless, colourful, vibrant wedding films for couples getting married on Cape Cod, Martha’s Vineyard, Nantucket, and the New England area.
With so much experience in the wedding industry, Cindy has seen it all – not just at weddings, but also behind the scenes as a business owner. She’s experienced burnout herself and has had to learn how to set boundaries and reframe her mentality around her goals and what success looks like for her. It’s what’s contributed to making her so passionate about small business owners, especially those in the wedding industry, making their mental health a priority.
So let’s dive into this interview, shall we?!
(Interview)
Sandra: Welcome, and thank you so much, Cindy, for joining me on the podcast today! I’m so, so excited for this interview and this topic. We’ve had a chance to talk offline a little bit about why we’re so passionate about this. So I’m so excited to dive in, but before we do that, I would love if you could just introduce yourself real quick and tell us a little bit about yourself.
Cindy: Thank you so much for having me, Sandra. It’s so great to be here and we have! We’ve talked about this, I don’t wanna say at length, but a decent amount. Um, but to introduce myself really fast, um, I’m Cindy I’m co-owner with my husband of a videography company, a wedding videography company, um, on Cape Cod. Um, we film, uh, premium and luxury weddings, uh, on the Northeast and we are big, big advocates of mental health and awareness! So, um, and that’s for us and our couples. So we work really hard to, um, make a balance for everybody in our entire experience.
Sandra: I love that, that’s so important. And I love that you said that you do this for not just yourselves, but also for your clients as well, because there’s really like two such huge parts of how those come together so I think it’s so important to have a balance between the two.
Cindy: It is. And planning a wedding is like a, a part-time job for a good year, year and a half. And I know, um, a lot of our couples are – I don’t wanna say overachievers, but they’re certainly achieving a lot. You know, they’re getting their graduate degrees, they’re buying their first house. They’re changing their entire marital status planning, the world’s biggest party. Um, and usually one other gigantic thing at the same time and sometimes competing in, in athletics, it’s it astounds me how much they’re accomplishing and it’s really important to help them keep a level head as well. And I know how stressful it can be. And then it’s stressful for us to help balance all that at the same time.
Sandra: Ya, absolutely. And the more relaxed our clients are, the easier it becomes for us, so I think it’s so important to put a little bit of emphasis there, too.
Cindy: Exactly, exactly.
Sandra: Remind me, how long have you been in business for now?
Cindy: We’ve been in business for 16 years.
Sandra: Oh, that’s amazing!
Cindy: My husband has been filming, uh, far longer than that. And I mean, honestly, I don’t even know if 16 years is accurate, but we’ve lived on Cape Cod for 16 years. We’ve been filming since we’ve gotten here. Um, whether or not Harborview, like it’s just, my brain is so foggy. It’s this is August brain for weddings right now.
Sandra: I can totally relate!
Cindy: Um, but uh, Sean’s been filming since, I dunno, at least 20 years, so we’ve been at this for a good, good long time.
Sandra: Yeah, absolutely. And in all that time, you guys must have gone through so many seasons in your business where it’s been busier and a little slower… Hopefully never, again, as slow as it was over the last couple of years! Um, but what has your experience with that been like when it comes to trying to navigate things like burnout.
Cindy: Oh, it is it’s, it’s really, it’s, it’s gone, it’s run the gamut. Um, a lot of the burnout has to do with, um… Well, I think for the wedding for wedding professionals, a lot of it is got to do with, uh, predictions and control. We, we have a very varied income and when that income isn’t coming in, we can freak out. And once we’re freaking out that can lead to bad choices, uh, for our businesses like panic bookings, and then some, you know, and then we, we panic on one end of the year. And then when we have to fulfill those panic bookings, we’re panicking, ’em on the other, and then we have to do the deliverables and then this, we just have this, um, you know, this neverending cycle until we can just really just stop and fix the problem. So, um, There’s been, uh, plenty of opportunity for Sean and I just to go through that and, uh, and, and try to make some fail-safes and, and adjust and correct. And it’s always a, it’s a never ending… You can never… It’s never truly fixed. I don’t wanna say fixed. It’s not the right word, but it’s never truly calm, I guess, is where you’re always – there’s always something you’re doing to continue to, uh, improve, uh, for your own sake. And, uh, because you’re always going through your own season of life, your business go through seasons, your, um, your life goes through seasons. Sometimes they intersect and sometimes they create a perfect storm. There’s all sorts of parts of life. And sometimes you think that you’re the only one that this is happening to. So it’s really helpful to know that this has happened to other people. And hearing that as often as possible, I feel is really important.
Sandra: Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. In the beginning of what you were saying, I feel like you were describing like 2017/2018 Sandra, because that’s totally what my business was all about. Taking in all of the bookings, a lot of panic bookings, trying to make up for times when I was not as busy and things like that, and it ended in just misery and a lot of tears on the couch and a lot of unhappy clients. And since I did exactly what you said, like just push pause, and kind of stop and gain some perspectives, slow down and figure out what aspects of the business really are as important as I think they are and what aspects are not, and you know, that I’m investing too much of my emotions into… When you start giving yourself some perspective on all of that, it becomes a lot easier to focus on yourself, but also on your clients and make sure that you are not having as much of a fluctuation between those highs and lows, because like you said, so many things can come our way. It’s hard to really predict, and when you focus on making those predictions and thinking like, “oh, well, you know, the last two years, it was really, like really busy this time for bookings and now it’s really quiet, what am I doing wrong?” Like, you get, it’s so easy to get lost in those things, and so taking that step to just like gain perspective so that you are better prepared to navigate around that I think is so important.
Cindy: Right. And I think one of the things that’s really important too, is to actually keep accurate records of when the busy times are because, you know, minds aren’t the best at accurately keeping memories intact.
Sandra: Yes.
Cindy: Uh, without keeping it actually written down somewhere that you can refer back to because your, your brain can think, oh, Q2 is always when we have all our bookings, but it might have actually been quarter three. Um, and that’s certainly something that I have gone through. Um, I think it was actually before 2020, before the pandemic, when I started to say, I’m like, “you know what, I’m writing down every month, you know, how many inquiries?” So if you don’t have a CRM that keeps it track of this for you, or you find that your CRM isn’t entirely accurate – (cough) Honeybook, but, um…
Sandra: Yes, I am a huge Honeybook fan too so I will second that!
Cindy: But it’s not always as accurate as you might need it to be.
Sandra: Yes. So true.
Cindy: It can be a little, um, overarching. But, so for accurate reporting, uh, like out for the inquiries that come in and the sales that you’re doing, whether it’s a full job or if it’s just like a one-off invoice for extra hours, like if you can just separate that out somewhere in a spreadsheet or Word or wherever you like to go back to for information, that’s really helpful to know why your sales were higher in a particular month because you might have had a coup lot of couples who upgraded or maybe, um, I know that for us, you know, miraculously, it looked like a quarter two was really great in sales because we had a lot of clients who just didn’t book enough time a year before, and they had to add two extra hours because their, you know, their timelines got screwy. And so we made a lot more money in, you know, June and July. Yeah. And, um, no, it doesn’t matter anyways. Ya.
Sandra: Ya, I was just gonna do the math on my fingers to fig- finger… Wow. Fingers to figure it out! But I know what you’re trying to say for sure.
Cindy: And, um, and, and so it’s just. You just wanna be able to look back and accurately be able to say, oh, this was my busy time. It also really helps for when you might want to raise your rates, uh, to find out like, “oh, I tried raising my rates in quarter two. Oh. It just turns out people don’t really book in quarter two.” So and so, you know, it helps with the whole panic of when I should and shouldn’t do things.
Sandra: Yeah, absolutely.
Cindy: It’s a totally different topic for a totally different time, but, you know, I know it’s part of that whole mental health thing. Um, and that’s one of the biggest things that we used to, I used to, cause I took it over from Sean so Sean doesn’t really stress over anything anymore! But, um, mostly, uh, you know, it’s like, there’s a few key things that well stress about, and one of them is, is like, if you want to raise your rates, you know, why, why isn’t it successful? So then you fall back on it and, uh, and then you get into this whole despair cycle of why isn’t it happening? Why is it happening for everyone else? Why isn’t it happening for me? And that you could just turn out to be trying to raise it in the wrong time of year. Um, and so if you just keep records and things like that… I’m going on about this way too long!
Sandra: No, I, I love it! I think it’s so important. I also love spreadsheets. I, I nerd out a lot about a lot of things behind the scenes, Cindy and I were joking before I started recording about how I’m a huge weather nerd, and we could talk about this forever. Um, but, when it comes to spreadsheets and just like keeping track of all of the data that it goes along with running your business. I think it really does contribute to the headspace of things that are successful and not successful, and how you feel about your business overall. Um, I used to do bridal shows a couple times every year, and I thought that there was no way I could ever, ever not do a bridal show. Like it just seemed like the craziest thing. That’s easy access to thousands of brides or thousands of couples. How could I ever not do this? And then one day I decided to look at my spreadsheets and actually figure out – because I keep track of all the inquiries that are coming in, um, and where they’re coming from. I realized when I took a look at the numbers that I wasn’t generating any income from these bridal shows, I was actually losing money because it was costing me hundreds to thousands of dollars every time I wanted to participate in one, and I wasn’t getting any bookings, all the bookings that I was getting were coming from other places. And so I went from stressing about like, why am I not booking? And all these other people seem to be booking. When I then realize looking at my numbers, I am booking. I’m just not booking from the bridal show. So that means that I will be completely successful to just stop doing the bridal shows and keep that money in my pocket instead.
Cindy: Right. Exactly. And instantly you have an income boost because you just, it’s just not hemorrhaging from going to bridal shows.
Sandra: Ya, exactly. I was walking by a trade booth over the weekend at, just at like a totally different event, and somebody started talking to us and they were super friendly, but as we walked away, I was just like, I don’t miss doing this at all. I’m so glad that that’s not on my plate anymore!
Cindy: I know. And it’s tough for a lot of us, because a lot of us are introverts and we don’t like selling and that’s not only selling, but it’s cold selling and it’s selling face to face. So it can be really, really hard. So I don’t miss it either. (Laughs) I don’t miss it at all.
Sandra: Yeah. It’s so, so true. Um, so speaking of being in the midst of wedding season that we touched on a little bit, what do you think are some of the best ways to set boundaries in order to just maintain your mental health and your energy as you’re going forward throughout the year?
Cindy: That’s a really, really, really good question. I think it’s gonna be different for everybody because everybody has different energy and everybody has different. Things that they’re gonna need to protect. So for example, um, for me and Sean, we’re, we’re both introverts, I’m slightly more extroverted than he is. Um, but we both recharge our energy by being home and not scheduling a lot of events. So we discovered that, um, we had to, we can’t do, uh, three weddings a weekend anymore. We can’t do Friday, Saturday, Sunday. We just can’t. It is… It’s absolutely killer. Um, so we made sure never to block any, uh, or to, to block out a third day, every single time. And it just so happened that this year, most of our weekends were single weddings, and now we don’t wanna do double bookings anymore. So in order to do that, we had to look at how much money we wanna make a year and we had to raise our rates. And then now we have to, like, I don’t mind working multiple days per weekend, I just would prefer to work multiple days with the same couple versus a brand new couple every day. So that’s where a lot of that extra energy comes from. So it’s just like, if you’re doing a rehearsal dinner on Friday and then a wedding, and then, you know, a brunch, it’s totally different energy versus a wedding on Friday, a wedding on Saturday, a wedding on Sunday. And you might not make the same amount of money, but you might make enough to make that switch worth it. So there’s that. So that’s a really big one.
Um, another one is to realize that you do need time off during the wedding season. Um, so make sure that you, your weekends, aren’t going to be your weekend anymore, and it might be completely impractical to take two days off a week, so make sure, but make sure you make you take one day off. Where you do no work, no calls, no emails, put up a vacation responder and say, I will return all your calls on Tuesday or whatever. And another thing that will do is, um… And I was terrified to do it! Um, we often so a lot. A lot of vendors will do final consultations. So photographer, videographer, um, planners, uh, will do final consult- final consultations. One of our weaknesses was doing them too early or too far away from the wedding because we know our clients are stressed out before the wedding, and everybody’s saying like, you gotta do it 14 days, three weeks before the wedding. I can’t remember that many people that far in advance! (laughs) So I, I really hesitated to do it. We now do it the week of the wedding and, um, everybody, I, we were just, we were just absolutely petrified to do it because we know there’s a lot of stress for our couples that week. And on top of it for video, we are that vendor that often doesn’t get booked because people perceive that we’re going to stress them out. Um, so it was a, it was a big decision. And what we had to do is we had to explain why we’re doing it the week of the wedding. You know, we made it a benefit for our couple as much as it was a benefit for them. And I will not let a future couple, any other couple that isn’t getting married that weekend, I will not have a call with. I’m not having a final consultation, we, anytime before the week before your wedding, I can’t remember your wedding. It is my limitation. I know it. And I can’t fix it. There’s nothing I can do about that. And it is not, it’s just how I’m built, so instead of beating myself up, I just have to work around it. So, um, no, one’s complained, not a single person has complained. And if they’ve complained that they haven’t complained to me, it hasn’t affected reviews, it hasn’t affected anything. So, um, whatever it is that you, that you’re stressing out about changing, because you think a couple might freak out about – you are not going to know unless you try it!
And one of the things that, um, I’ve learned in the past, because we’ve had some really precarious years outside of the pandemic, um, just due to not really knowing who our couples were or what our goals were, and, um, is just, is letting go of this idea of what you want, ‘cause it might be like an old goal, and just being okay with what might come because it actually might be, and chances are, will probably be better than what you were holding onto, um, because when you’re holding on so tight, you’re holding on with a death grip, you’re not giving that room for growth and that room for like… You can’t relax when you’re desperately white-knuckling it through, um, and, and just being like, I’ll relax in like December and January and, and February. And that is terrible strategy because if you have a year like 2021, we couldn’t relax because we bottlenecked so often. We had so many clients, we bottlenecked in so many places. We didn’t have any time off. Like we didn’t have any months. We edited through 2022 into the start of the 2022 season. So we didn’t have any of that nice, juicy, nothing time. We didn’t have that. So don’t rely on that. So make sure you schedule that out.
Um, and also another thing that we’ve done is, we’ve taken a week in our, in our summer and just protected it. Be like, nope, nobody gets it, but nobody is booking this week and it hurts to turn it away. I’m not gonna lie. It hurts! And there’s so many times you’re tempted to just take the money, ‘cause it is… I don’t, there isn’t a single vendor I know who doesn’t need the money for one reason or another. You might have plenty of, you know, money in the bank and you could have plenty of cushion, but there isn’t anybody I know that doesn’t see a booking and think “I can do something with the money that would be coming in with that.” You know, it’s really tempting to just go ahead and be like, I, I can just, I’ll just do it. It’ll be fine. But if you don’t protect the things that are important to you, compromising that time is… It’s always gonna eat away. Time is the only thing that you can’t replace. You can always make more money. You can always buy a different house, get a different car. That stuff you can always, you can always get that, but you cannot make more time. There is nothing you can do to make more time. So that time, time is the most valuable resource you can possibly have for yourself. So you have to prioritize it. Um, and I think one of the things that we have talked about is, uh, is giving clients 110%…
Sandra: Ya!
Cindy: That mentality of, and it’s, it’s one of those “super service” mentalitie. “I’m gonna give 110%!” And I’m… I’m I almost guarantee you that somebody kind of came up with that as kind of like, just kinda like a concept. Like nobody meant it literally! But I feel like our industry has taken it literally! And we push and push and push and give more. Um, so, you know, think of your energy as being divided in half. In two halves. You know, you have your work self and your personal self. And each of those halves have 100. You know, you, you can fill each of those halves to 100%. Um, so there’s, I mean, they’re divided out more specifically, but for ease of, of figuring this out, we’re gonna just go with personal and business. Um, if you’re giving 110% of your energy from your business side, you’re taking that energy from your, your personal side. There’s, I mean, it has to come from somewhere. It’s kind of like time, like you don’t have more than you can give.
Sandra: Yeah. When you’re saying yes to one thing, you’re automatically saying no to something else. There’s no way around that.
Cindy: Right. So if you’re like, I’m gonna give 110% to this client and you’ve got 20 clients that adds up a lot to what’s taking out of your personal energy so it is okay to not to give 110% and you shouldn’t give 110%. Like, it’s just such a weird mentality. And it’s just words. I’s just a concept. There’s nobody I know who doesn’t give it their all. Like, just change the language. Don’t say 110%, because it’s just, it-it’s like, it’s just a dangerous concept to just be like, I’m just gonna give and give and give and give, and then.. and then you’ve got nothing. And I’ll tell when you have nothing, the kind of burnout you get when you have nothing is a dangerous kind of burnout. It’s not like a, I need a couple of Margarita’s burnout. It’s, I’m staring at this blank wall for six months, burnout. Like you physically cannot do it. And I know it because I’ve gone through it. And it wasn’t during, um, my, my wedding years, I also had a graphic design business before this and graphic design is very similar to wedding industry where you are a service job. And when you have multiple clients, um, you know, you are you’re the hero. So not only was I graphic design, but I was graphic design for presentations. And when you work with presentations, very similar to weddings, is it’s all very high stress and high pressure and very fast deadlines, and one thing I love more than anything. So it’s, it’s, it’s kind of, it’s kind of an addictive quality is, I love being the hero. I love saving the day for people. And, um, and I did that for a very long time. I did that for 20 years. I’m really making myself sound like I’m 80 years old!
Both: (Laugh)
Cindy: But, um, in any case, I, I got to a point, and this is where I, I mentioned that sometimes the seasons of your life intersect. Um, I was in the season of my life where my parents are, are getting older. My mom had cancer, and she had terminal cancer, and she was dying that year. We knew she was gonna die that year, which is a really weird thing to go through. Um, and also that year, like I, I had this job where I knew that there was this huge end of the year conference and she was going to die at the – during that conference. Also a really weird thing to go through. This was at the kind of the tail end of, of when I was doing my graphic design because I was just, I, I knew at that point I didn’t wanna do it anymore. I was exhausted. I was creatively tapped out and I was trying to leave it anyway. And, um, it was one of those things that kept stealing from my personal time. And I knew it. Um, you know, that conference, that end-of-the-year conference was during the holiday season, Thanksgiving through new years, and it stole a lot of time for my family, right during the holidays. Um, but man was that good money! You know, and you think about what you can do with that money and you don’t think about what’s gonna happen 10 years from now. You think about, I can use it now, and the next year I can use it now. And the next year you can use it now, and then the years start going really fast.
But in any case, um, when you don’t put those personal boundaries up, um, it’s not your client’s job to say I’ve probably taxed them enough.
Sandra: Oh yes! That’s so, so true!
Cindy: It’s not their job to go, you know, they’re probably tired. It’s – and we can get really, really resentful at the wrong people when we are feeling like we’re overtaxed. It’s our job to do that. It’s our, this is only our job. It is the only person’s job it is to protect is ours. And that when you’re, when you’re burnt out and you’re tired and you’re exhausted, that is a hard concept to be okay with.
Sandra: Yes, that’s so true. Um, I remember just speaking to that, like, I, I worked as a second photographer for a lot of years with other companies in my area, and I remember several times being at a wedding and the photographer that I’m working with is spiraling into a panic because they got an email from a couple and they’re like, “don’t they know where I am?! I it’s a Saturday!! Obviously I’m at a wedding! This is what I do!” And they’re spiraling and spiraling… as they’re replying. From their phone. During the wedding. On a Saturday. And so you’re, by doing things like that, you’re teaching your clients how to communicate with you. When you’re accessible, when you’re available. So if you’re not putting priority on making sure that you have time off and that you’re setting boundaries for your rest, they don’t know. They are just going by what you have educated them is okay.
Cindy: Exactly. They don’t have 25 other clients. I mean, they do. They have 25 other vendors they’re doing, but they’re doing their job. They are planning their wedding. They’re stressed and burned out themselves, but they’re, they’re stressed and burned. Like – neither, none of us are considering the other ones. We’re not really considering how stressed our clients are. They’re not considering how stressed we are. Or if we are, it’s fairly minimal, minimal. Um, you know, or any – at best, in an empathetic way, but we still need to get it done so we still have to push.
You know, but in any case, we are the ones that are responsible for it. And in this perfect storm of storms that happened, we had, also at this time, I think this, we were, it was during the course of a recession. The giant presentation thing was going on. My mom is dying. My mom died. She died a week before Christmas, so I didn’t even get to see her for Christmas. Um, the presentation was going on. The recession was going on. My client ended up dumping me right after the presentation and just ghosted me. Didn’t talk to me for months. I couldn’t get my money from them. And, um, and I just spiraled because several other clients just immediately ghosted too. And I don’t know if it had it to do with the recession or what I never got answers!
And, um, and so not taking care of myself and not seeing, not protecting that future and really planning to protect myself and kind of… Look out for myself the way I should, instead of constantly giving for my clients. And I mean, constantly-
Sandra: Mm-hmm. Treating yourself the way that you were treating your clients.
Cindy: Right? Exactly. And when all of a sudden they, they left ‘cause they had to go, I was left with next to nothing except being alone with my burnout. My 140% burnout, uh, where I really could not do anything for about six months. And I mean, like I – poor Sean. He was just like trying so hard not to be like, “we need a second income!”
Both: (Laugh)
Cindy: I was trying so hard and we were just in such a precarious financial situation because I didn’t take care of my mental health.
Sandra: Ya.
Cindy: So, that is how bad burnout can get. So it is really, really important to keep up on it. It’s really important to protect yourself. It’s really important. Like we all want to service our clients to the best of our ability, but we also have to realize that the best of our ability does not necessarily mean “here! Take all of my energy!”
Sandra: Absolutely.
Cindy: It’s like putting your mask on before helping somebody else with their mask.
Sandra: Mm-hmm. I think that’s such a great analogy!
Cindy: It is! Because it’s not selfish and a lot of people it’s, it’s bizarre how we all think that that’s selfish. It’s just like, right. But if we’re passed out, we can’t help people.
Sandra: Yeah, exactly. It’s so important. And it’s, I think has a lot to do with, you know, the generation that we were brought up in and things like that. But the mentality of take care of everybody, especially as women – take care of everybody, but yourself. And if you’re looking after yourself, putting yourself as number one priority, you’re selfish, you don’t care about other people. There are all these negative things. When in reality, like, a lot of the things that we’re trying to unlearn as we’ve come into this period of our lives is because of the mentality that our parents and grandparents had around things like that, that if they had maybe put themselves first every now and then that things would’ve proceeded, maybe easier, maybe not. We can’t say because it’s in hindsight, but at the same time, like, making those changes for me anyway has made a huge difference.
Cindy: Yes, exactly. Same here. And, uh, but yeah, you had mentioned before, especially as women. Um, you know, men have their own challenges. Typically it’s around emotional availability um, or being able to be vulnerable. Um, and ours is about, um, you know, taking care of ourself first. Um, and yeah, I think, oh gosh. Oh, I always think – I’m at the age where I think everything happened two years ago, but it was probably not.
Sandra: (Laughs)
Cindy: Um, Elizabeth Banks did almost like a PSA, which was really funny where she was going through a heart attack, and as a mom, she was just still taking care of everybody first before she collapses. She was just like having the chest pain, her left arm is going numb and you know, she’s sweating and like starting to collapse on the floor and she’s still like making the kids lunch. Um, she’s like, I’m fine. I’m fine. I’m fine. And you know, she’s like the, the whole PSA was actually about women having like a higher mortality rate of have, you know, especially younger women having a higher mortality rate going through heart attacks because we tend not to prioritize ourselves.
And, um, it was both comical and sad at the same time, because that’s what we do. We give, give to, to, you know, spouses we give to our kids, we give to our friends, we give to our parents, we give to our clients – somewhere in there we are there. Somewhere. I don’t know if we’d recognize us, but, um, but it’s really important that we start to, to know who we are. And that’s, I think at the beginning, this of, um, this particular segment I, I mentioned, it’s gonna be really important to know what your priorities are and, and where your boundaries are, need to be placed. But that also requires you knowing who you are. So it’s gonna, it, it’s kind of like a… Uh, what’s what am I trying to say? Like kind of a, a two prong attempt. So many people, um, when they are going through their wedding business, especially wedding professionals, when we first start out, we are all into the point where we kind of disappear ourselves. And if we do this for too long, like, we really don’t recognize who we are. We don’t remember what we do. Um, and especially at the, when, you know, August, especially in the Northeast is tends to be a time where a lot of us are, are at just peak wedding exhaustion and you know, us. Yeah. Both of us peak wedding exhaustion! And, um, like we can’t remember things. Um, we, like, we get to a point where we’re just kind of like, staring and not really sure what to say. I, I know I am super guilty with it about this, you know, part of Sean’s job is to remember what I like. You know, he’ll be like let’s go to, go out to dinner. What do you want? I’m like, I don’t know, honey, remind me of what I like. I’m like, because I’m tired. I’m like, I have to edit, I have to sell, I have to have all this client facing interaction and I have to be happy during all of it.
Sandra: It can be so depleting to just be on for hours and hours. Like that’s, there’s a whole other mental side of working a wedding that I think a lot of people don’t realize until they’re in it, that like there’s doing your job, and then there’s the mental part that goes along with it as well, to be happy and be on and be talking to people and be thinking 10 steps ahead. And all this other things… Like, on Sundays, I don’t like to speak. It’s just kind of like, leave me be, I’m gonna float around the house and everything will be totally fine, but like, I just don’t wanna use my voice today.
Cindy: Like, um, like for example, this past weekend we had, um, pretty much, I don’t know, the world had a, a heat wave for the past two weeks. And this I think was probably like just topping out and, you know, we were all exhausted and I, as the videographer, got the option to just “fly-on-the-wall”-it. I’m just like, you know what? I’m checking out. I’m just gonna film. I get the option. I’m, I’m supposed to just be the one that melts into the background. The photographer, I get to feel bad for because she has to wrangle everybody. She has to tell everybody how to be happy in a 120 degree heat, in direct sun on the beach, um, where everybody’s miserable, ‘cause they’re wearing wool suits and thick dresses and you know, it’s humid and we’re all just – none of us are happy.
Sandra: So true!
Cindy: Yeah. None of us, um, you know, none of us wanted to be there at all.
Sandra: I’m not gonna lie. I, uh, I actually took a week off, um, at the end of July while it was super hot and I haven’t had a wedding during this heat wave and I went into every Saturday saying, “I’m so glad I don’t have a wedding today,” because it is a whole other level when it is that hot outside.
Cindy: Ya. We missed the first heat wave, uh, of the season. And it was one of those things where we were like, oh, so glad we didn’t have it, and, but boy did we not – we were not lucky that next one! We had lots of weddings. But we made it through and we didn’t have heat stroke and we didn’t pass out. We didn’t come close to it, which made me very happy.
Sandra: Good! Um, you mentioned a little bit earlier about, um, the hustle of getting started and that’s something that I wanted to talk to you about as well, because it’s something that I’ve thought a lot about. Um, about whether or not that hustle culture mentality is necessary when you’re first starting out, because when you’re first starting a business, it does take longer hours, a little bit of footwork because you don’t have the word of mouth referrals and you need people to know that you exist and things like that. So I’d love to talk a little bit about if you think that it’s important to be a little looser on your boundaries in the beginning, or if you think that there is benefit to setting those boundaries right from the get go, and then building up from there.
Cindy: That’s a really, really good question. I think it’s really important. And I’m glad that you asked it. Um, having gone through two different companies, uh, and two different startups, I would say it’s really important to, to set those boundaries right away. Really, really important. Um, I am, I’m not going to say that I am a perfect boundary setter. I am not in the least a perfect boundary setter. Um, but what I would say is – I would say, identify what you’re willing to break your boundaries for. Um, if… So, on Cape Cod, everybody here on Cape Cod knows what a Cape Cod wedding looks like. Um, everybody’s dressed in like a dusty blue. There’s some pink highlights. There’s blue, hydrangeas everywhere. There’s lots of, uh, green, uh… oh gosh… Oh, eucalyptus, is really big. Um, sometimes there’s a bunch of baby’s breath. Um, but generally you can just stamp that wedding all around and that’s a Cape Cod wedding. It’s everywhere all the time. Sometimes it’s just a matter of how many more hydrangeas are gonna be there. Um, and, uh, we’ll all laugh or we’ll all just be, you know, cheering when we have flowers that are something other than a blue hydrangea. And you know, and so do not get me wrong. Blue hydrangeas are great. I mean, I, wasn’t always living on Cape Cod, so I, I have blue hydrangeas. You just, you get tired of it when you see it all the time, but, you know, it’s so special to your couples. So that is your everyday wedding on Cape Cod, even a, a higher end wedding on Cape Cod is probably going to be just flush with hydrangeas. Uh, one of our most famous weddings on Cape Cod that everybody knows about from September 28th, 2019, no, 2021. Um, the one with Bruno Mars, had a ceiling full of blue hydrangeas. They, I think an entire farm in Holland was just planted with blue hydrangeas for that wedding in particular.
Sandra: Wow.
Cindy: So, um, so one of our highest and most expensive weddings here was just blue hydrangeas. So what I would say is even for… So like, if you were just like, you know what, September 28th, I’m not working a wedding, uh, but then some super ultra luxury wedding is, uh, you know, contacts you, and you’re just like, uh, should I book it? And you can just be like, all right, listen. You can have your pros and cons list. And it can be like (sigh) freaking blue hydrangeas. Well… But it’s an entire farm of blue hydrangeas. That’s different than some bud vases of blue hydrangeas, you know? So you just go back and forth and be like, you know… Because I mean, somebody like me, uh, we love all of our clients. Like all of our clients are almost 98% of them are ideal clients. They love us. We love them. We’re good friends with all of them. They’re a joy to work with. There’s no one who isn’t a joy to work with. So even just liking the person isn’t, I don’t wanna say isn’t good enough, but it’s kind of not good enough. So like at this point, it’s just like, where do you wanna be next year or two years from now or five years now, is this wedding going to help it? Or, do you really badly need the money right now? Because we’ve all been there. And we’ve all taken the job just to, you know, because we need the money and we get it.
So, I mean, I would just have perspective on what you need right now and what will get you, uh, relief from X, Y, and Z. And I would say that – use that as your, your help to decide whether or not to break those boundaries. Um, as for hustling… Um, I hate hustling. Hustling’s exhausting. I mean, I totally understand you’re gonna have to hustle. Um, but I would say just when you’re hustling, um, know that you are not going to have the hustle energy forever, even if you were just like “I’m 20 and amazing, snd I have all the energy in the world! I have the energy of this supernova star!” You will not have it forever!
Sandra: Unfortunately, yes, it’s so true!
Cindy: It goes away when you’re 45 and doing this, you will hate everyone if you don’t protect yourself. Um, you know, so it’s gonna be really important. You’re gonna do so much better, go so much farther and, you know, love your job for the, every reason why you got into it to begin with, if you don’t just absolutely hustle your way through it. Um, just slow and steady always runs, uh, wins the race. You know, it might not be sexy and it might not be glamorous and it might not be that overnight success story, but who cares? Just get there the way that’s important to you.
Sandra: Yes. I love that. That’s so important. I am all about finding ways to run your business, regardless of its wedding photography, videography, fitness, like whatever industry you’re in, finding a way that works for you instead of finding ways for you to work like everybody else, because we all have so much going on with our lives, and so what works for one person is not always gonna work for another person. And I know when the first few years of my business, I was trying to do things like the photographers that I had worked for and learned from, and the, you know, watching workshops and things like that and trying to do everything the way that everybody else was doing it. And the only place that, that landed me was burnt out by the end of every year.
Cindy: Oh yeah, exactly. Or all the templates that you buy, um, they might not work for you because they don’t sound like you. I, I just bought templates from uh, uxury wedding videographers for upselling. And ah, they couldn’t sound farther from me at all. Oh my God! Boy they do not sound like me. If, if I just took that and plugged in people’s names, they would be like, “Ew! Who are you?!” Like you just, you can’t… There’s no… I don’t wanna say there’s no shortcuts. Of course there are shortcuts, but shortcuts aren’t going to be as fast and as easy as you think they’re going to be. There’s no… there’s no silver bullet. There’s no, um, there’s just no easy, super, super easy, fast way. And if there is for you then that, then you found something that was going to work for you regardless. So any of those, like how to make, you know, $150,000 in the first three months. That worked for that person. Might not work for you. Chances are it won’t work for you.
Sandra: Right!
Cindy: But that’s also, if they’re selling it to you, that’s probably how they made $150,000 in that first three months. They figured out how to sell the people who really wanna make $150,000 in that first three months.
Sandra: Yeah, absolutely. Just find little takeaways. Like I think it’s so important to invest in your education and things like that, but you definitely wanna go into it with the perspective of this worked for them so find the takeaways that resonate with you and find ways to implement that into your own business, and you’re gonna be so much more successful that way than just taking everything that they said for the black and white value and then, you know, a few months down the road, you’re wondering why do I still feel like I’m in the exact same place I was three months ago?
Cindy: Exactly. I would say find ways to work smarter. Um, you know, so going back to the templates thing, um, I-I’m, I’m shocked at how many people don’t use templates. Use templates that are from you!
Sandra: Yes, exactly!
Cindy: You-use anything that you have to use multiple times. Make that into a template. Um, you know, find, find, discover what your process is. Write it down. Um, and this might seem simple and obvious, but I mean it, number one, importance. Number two, um, there might be steps in your process that you’re missing. Um, there could be times like right now, Sean and I are we’re at that cusp where we’re growing. We’re not growing so fast where all of a sudden we can throw a whole bunch of money at the problem and they’ll go away, we’re like, at that point where we’re like, boy throwing a lot of money in it would be great and it would probably solve it, but we don’t have that money to throw it at. So, we have to like do that uncomfortable, like twisting of things. Yeah. A lot of people find themselves in that situation. Um, so you kind of have to figure out what’s gonna get you there faster.
Um, when you identify what’s going to work in your education, I, I mean, I, I will always sing the praises of finding the right coach. Make sure that right coach is right for you. Do a – do not be impulsive about it. Do your homework. Interview your coach. If they don’t wanna be interviewed, do not hire them! They should want to be. It’s kind of like when, um, when you’re selling to couples, um, you should wanna work with them as much as they wanna work with you. Same thing with a business coach. You know, they’re not, everyone’s gonna be a good fit. You know, we say that to our couples or our prospective couples, and you’re not gonna be a good fit for everyone. Everyone’s not gonna be a good fit for you. And that is going to be true for everything that happens in life! You know, pretty much everything. Anything that happens that deals with people that’s going to be true for all of it. So, you know, a, a good coach is gonna lead you to places, um, faster than you probably would’ve stumbled through on your own. If you especially are in a place where you are stumbling and you can’t figure it out and you’re just so super frustrated and you’re just like, “Ugh, but spending the money on the coach is gonna be so much!” and you’re, but you’re just so stuck – hire the coach. I always look at it like this. Because I, I think we all, all of us have those things that we’ll immediately spend money on. Um, and we all have those things, and it’s usually got something to do with like investing in ourselves that isn’t like fun. Um, I only always look at it this way. I look at it in retrospect. If in the future, whether that’s three months, five months, five years, ten years… Looking back, if it could, if you could solve the problem by paying $5,000 in ten years. Ten years from now, if you could look back and say, “oh, if I could just pay, you know, past Cindy, if I could just pay $5,000 and she wouldn’t have had that problem.” If you could just pay that and it would just go away, would you pay it? And if the answer is yes, then invest in it because that’s the answer. (Laughs)
Sandra: I love that.
Cindy: Invest in the thing. Um, and then if the answer is no, then don’t.
Sandra: I love that. That’s such a good way to look at it.
Cindy: Ya, that that’s usually like one of the best ways of figuring out whether or not you should spend money on something, is if you can use this money to solve it, like, um, you know, sometimes it’s, uh, something as dumb and little as cold medicine. Like, I know that the brand name, I always know that the brand name is, is going to get rid of my cold, you know, in three days. But I oh, but like the generic is $5 cheaper and you’re like, yeah, but if it takes.. If it doesn’t work or if it takes longer to work, you know, on day three, would you have paid an extra $5 to get better sooner? Would you do it? Yes. Okay. Then buy it now.
Sandra: Right.
Cindy: That kind of a thing. So it works on all the levels.
Sandra: That’s so, so true. I love that. Um, so talking a little bit more about burnout before we wrap things up. A lot of times we do feel ourselves getting into that point. We’re getting drained. We’re starting to dread the things that we have booked a little bit more, we’re feeling like our to-do lists are ever-growing and never-ending, but sometimes it happens a lot faster than that, where it’s kind of just like we went one step too far or something unexpected avenue in our personal lives, and it all kind of comes crumbling down into a mess of burnout too. When you get into those spaces, what, whatever reason it is that led you to that point, do you think that there are steps that will help you get through it and come out the other side?
Cindy: You’re asking all the good questions.
Sandra: Ya, we’re getting really deep into it in this interview!
Cindy: Well, let’s see. Um. Absolutely, for sure. Um, it also, again, with everything else I’ve said, it also has to deal with being aware. So noticing that you’re, that you’ve, you’ve gone too far. Already noticing, it’s like the whole awareness thing is, is so key. So always being able to check in with yourself is so important and so big.
So, uh, so for steps to, to kind of get out of that before it gets too far, um, even if you’re somebody who’s not all that comfortable with facing, uh, those types of situations and not everybody is. And even the people who are, it can still be difficult. Um, the only way, and I do mean the only way, the only way out is through. You have to be okay with not being okay. You have to. you have to, ‘cause you have to go through it in order to be able to fix what’s going on. And it can either be something super simple and very quick, or it can be something really deep and really dark, and it’s gonna take a while. Either way, if you ignore it, it’s just going to compound. Um, and you can’t, you could try to ignore it. But then when you do ignore it, that’s when things, you know, when something happens and you can’t figure out why, or if you’ve, if you had a friend, maybe it’s easier to, to look at it from another, you know, somebody else’s perspective. Um, when you have a friend who something’s going wrong with, or maybe it’s like, they’re in the wrong job or they’re in the wrong relationship and they don’t want, like, all they do is they, they just come to you, the complaint about it over and over.
Sandra: Mm-hmm. They find comfort in the chaos of it all.
Cindy: Right.
Sandra: Because that’s what they’re familiar with and trying to do anything to get out of that is scary and it’s unknown. And so it becomes easier to just stay in all of that chaos.
Cindy. Right. Exactly. And you can see, you can see how easy it would be if they just realized, oh, this is just bad.
Sandra: Mm-hmm.
Cindy: I should just deal with it. Um, but they either don’t notice it or, um, don’t recognize it. I mean, I-I’ve been around plenty of people that this happened to. And they may not even mention that it’s a problem with the job. They can just be like, “my life sucks. This keeps happening. Y keeps happening.” And if, if that kind of situation starts coming up – “why does this keep happening to me? Why do my clients hate me? Why do I keep getting the worst clients? Uh, why don’t I, why can’t I ever raise my rates?” You know, you gotta look for like little things like that. So it’s not gonna look the way it’s gonna look when you see some happening to somebody else. So it’s always gonna look as if it’s being caused by an external thing. That’s when you need to, to stop and be like, it’s not happening because of something else it’s it’s happening because of some- I’m missing a step and you have to step back and you have to, and you have to reflect, you have to look and you have to be okay with knowing that there’s something wrong and, and just trying, trying to uncover it. Because, I mean, if you don’t and I’ve had plenty of this happen to me, life is just gonna change for you. Life is forward momentum. Nothing is stagnant in life. Even if it feels like your life isn’t changing, life is changing around you and life will change whether you want it to or not. So it is best to be able to go along for the ride. And it can be scary. It can be, and that is okay. It’s, it’s often scary. And, but usually the best things that happen are on the other side of that thing you don’t wanna look at. Um, and that is almost always the best things. So one of the things that I do when something particularly scary or, um, unpleasant is going on, um, I’ll often remind myself like, oh hey, anytime that something like this has happened to me, I’ll look back… Or if it’s just unpleasant, you know, you go through those times and you’re just like, why me? It’s not something that you can identify. And you’ve tried, you know, even if you’re just super self-reflective, you’re just like, “Nope. It’s not me. I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t know what it’s, it’s just terrible, terrible luck.” Still just be okay with it not being okay because eventually it will become okay. It will get there. And on the other side – if this has ever happened to you before – many times it’s after all that awfulness, it’s oftentimes the best things that’s happened. Whether you’ve lost a client you didn’t wanna lose and then a better client came along or, um, somebody who’s in like a really bad booking season. Um, even they haven’t booked for months, uh, and they just, you know, all these mediocre, like the, they, the “okay” projects came in. Projects that they would’ve been like, okay, booking came in, they lost and they don’t know why. Um, but then two months later they get all of those amazing bookings that actually give them forward momentum and then they’re like, “oh, well, thank God. I didn’t book all the other buttons because I would’ve been, I wouldn’t have been available these and I would’ve had to give ’em to somebody else.” So trying to just work through it because, um, because if you don’t, it’s just gonna be so much more painful.
Sandra: That’s so, so true. And when it comes to burnout, in terms of running a small business, if you don’t deal with it this year and you do find a way to just, you know, compartmentalize and push it deep down and not deal with it – which is what I did a few times over! It still came back year after year after year to the point that like early 2019 I was crying on the phone to my husband saying, “I’m gonna shut down my business, ‘cause I can’t do this anymore.” It will always, always come back to you. So I think it’s so important to just like you were saying, like press pause, do some internal reflection, find out what your needs are, what your non-negotiables are and give yourself the confidence of just knowing that you’ve gone through hard times before and you’ve always come out the other side and this is going to be one of those times too.
Cindy: Yep, exactly, exactly.
Sandra: Awesome. Well, before we wrap things up, is there anything else, any final thoughts you would like to add in or anything like that?
Cindy: Uh, you know, normally I probably would, but I’ve got August peak wedding brain, so, um-
Sandra: I can totally relate!
Cindy: But if I think of anything, I will email you and, you know, I would ask for you to add on in my honour.
Sandra: That sounds perfect. I love that. Well, thank you so much again! Um, and before I hop off, I would love if you could share, um, where everybody can find you online on social media and things like that, so they can follow along.
Cindy: Well, you can find us on Instagram, it’s where we are most of the time. Um, and that’s @HarborviewStudios, and we are on TikTok, with the same name Harborview studios, or you can check out our website at harborviewstudios.com.
Sandra: Perfect! I will definitely make sure to link all of those in the show notes as well to make it super easy for everybody to find you.
Cindy: That’s awesome. Thank you so much.
(Continued…)
Sandra: Ok – how great was that interview?!
I recorded this with Cindy back in August and honestly, I feel like it’s even more timely now towards the end of September than it was when we first connected. Most of us are gearing up for the craziness that is October and it’s when that feeling of burnout really starts to take hold for so many people. A little saying in the photography industry is that October is to photographers what April is to accountants. It could NOT be more true, ya’ll!
So I hope today’s episode has given you some tools and inspiration to take even just a small step towards implementing boundaries so that you can head into your next busy season on a path that isn’t leading you directly to burnout.
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Thanks so much for listening to Keeping It Candid: Wedding Photography Unfiltered with Sandra Henderson! You can find full show notes from today’s episode at simplysandrayvonne.ca/keepingitcandid. In the meantime – let’s connect! You can find me on Instagram @simplysandrayvonne, and on Facebook in the Wedding Photography Unfiltered community! If you’re loving this podcast, I’d be so honoured if you’d go ahead and hit that subscribe button and leave me a review!
Until next time!
About Cindy
Since 2006, Harborview Studios has created timeless, colorful, vibrant wedding films of couples getting married for couples getting married on Cape Cod, Martha’s Vineyard, Nantucket, or all of New England.
(Intro Music)
Welcome to Keeping it Candid – Wedding Photography Unfiltered for photographers who want to keep it real. I’m your host, Sandra Henderson, international wedding and family photographer and educator with a Marie Kondo-style approach to running a business – you know, keeping things simple and getting rid of anything that doesn’t bring you joy!. More importantly, I’m a strong enneagram 3w2 who is obsessed with tacos, and my love for travelling is one of many things that drives my passion for all things systems, workflows, and beating burnout as a business owner. Join me twice a month for a candid, behind-the-scenes look at what it’s really like working as a wedding photographer – where I’ll give you actionable steps to take your business to the next level. Absolutely no fluff here, friends! So grab your favourite notebook and pen, and let’s dive into this week’s episode.
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I hope you’re ready to celebrate because it’s our 10th episode of Keeping It Candid!! I’m all about celebrating wins, no matter how small they may seem – and hitting 10 episodes is the small win in my books today.
I can’t tell you how much I’ve loved every bit of creating this podcast. It was something I had joked about doing with my friends for years, but I decided to take a leap and incorporate it into my business at the start of 2022 and everything fell into place in a way that was almost kismet, honestly.
I’ve learned so much already in such a short time and thinking about all that’s to come is so exciting. But before I dive into all the goods about to come your way today, let me just take a quick second to say thank you to everyone out there who has listened to Keeping It Candid. All of your reviews and feedback truly mean so much, so thank you for coming along on this adventure with me!!
To celebrate this milestone, I’m so happy to have my very first guest on the show! I had the chance to connect with my friend Sarahna from Simply Organized Solutions a couple of weeks ago and trust me when I say, you’re going to love this interview.
Sarahna is a business systems architect who helps wedding professionals get their time back by helping them create better client experiences and work experiences by improving their systems and processes. She got her entrepreneurial start more than a decade ago when she worked as a wedding planner, and two years ago she pivoted her business to become a go-to expert on systems. If there’s one person who can really understand the importance of creating an efficient, organized system within your wedding business that works for YOU, it’s Sarahna.
She joined me to talk all about intuitive systems and what that looks like for a business within the wedding industry, why it’s so important to implement these types of processes ASAP no matter how long you’ve been in the industry for, and how to get started with creating intuitive systems yourself.
**Click here to get Sarahna’s freebie, a Business Systems Audit Workbook!**
(Interview)
Sandra: Well, thank you so much for being here, Sarahna, I’m so excited for our conversation today!
Before we get started, I would love if you would just take a second to introduce yourself and let everybody know your story and what you’re all about.
Sarahna: Not a problem. And thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Um, so my name is Sarahna Fernandes and my company is Simply Organized Solutions and I was, I am, a retired wedding planner, 12 years strong, and now I’m a business systems architect.
So that’s my own little title, ‘cause I really wanted to be a real architect, and then I was like, nah, it’s way too hard! haha
So when I got the chance to name myself, I went with business systems architect. But it is really what I do in the premise. I design and create and implement business systems for small female business owners. Um, I serve the wedding industry. That’s my jam, ‘cause I have so much experience in that field, but I also work with a ton of other creative entrepreneurs.
Like I love the other businesses ‘cause I get to learn, like, a fresh industry, and I dive into it and then I can be like, oh, that was fun! And then I bounce out and go into my other industry, which was pretty much my dream job. I knew in my life, whatever I wanted to do, I wanted to get immersed in a new thing and then change out and do another one and another one so it is the perfect job for me.
So now I build systems for business owners, I design the strategy behind it. I, my main objective is to build intuitive systems and systems that work for the real – for your real life.
So I’m a mom of two. I built this business during COVID basically. Weddings got shut down in, where I live, which is in Trinidad and Tobago, weddings got shut down. I now have no source of income. I’m at home with two small kids and a husband, who’s also an entrepreneur. He’s a landscaper. And I said, right, well, this is the right time to dive into this.
So I built this business two years now and, um, it had to work with my life because now I was at home with a four year- a toddler and another kid and doing all of the things.
So I did that poorly initially. So I was working late and hours and wasn’t sleeping and doing everything and driving myself insane. Then I had to stop and be like, okay, how do we do this smart? How do we do this intuitively? How do we do this so that it works with being a mom who’s gotta be in kindergarten class for two hours every morning and then do i- and then do client work and then stop to do lunch and play, and do all of the things.
So that is actually what my objective is when I work with clients. I understand their style of organizing, um, the psychology behind what’s driving them. I understand what their actual day-to-day life is. So sometimes I work with moms with small kids, sometimes I work with moms of very older kids, sometimes I’m working with single people who have no children and all of those things run different dynamics in your life.
And I believe that a business should never overwhelm you. It should never feel draining. You’re in this to share your gift and your passion with the world to help other people.
You’re also in it to earn money, which is a resource that helps you live your life, but you wanna live that life. And, um, I’ve got a ton of friends who are photographers and I love them. Like, I always wanna be like, their assistant. I was like, can I second shoot. Is that a thing? Do you have an extra camera?
Sandra: If only we lived closer!
Sarahna: I know! I would so do it, right? And um, so I always was like, I get you, I get photographers. Like I’ve sat there with her girlfriend who had to bring her computer to a weekend at a beach house because she had to cull images and she had to start editing. And I’m like, this takes a lot of time! Haha So you’re doing this, you’re shooting on the weekends. And then what, what else? What else do you do? And she’s like, you know, this is it. This is work. And I’m like, no, this is not sustainable. We’ve gotta figure out a way, ‘cause also you’re running this business.
So you’re the CEO who needs to nurture each client and each lead while doing galleries and editing while preparing for the wedding ahead and remembering where the rain location is for this wedding of many.
And, you know, there’s just a lot of balls in the air. And you also need to enjoy your life and be able to go on vacation and be able to rest and be able to sustain an emergency. ‘Cause that’s another thing. That’s my, that’s my sub-objective – building every single business that will be able to take a sudden pause for an undisclosed amount of time.
Sandra: Yes. I love that.
Sarahna: That’s a big thing to ask, but I’m like no that’s life.
Sandra: Exactly. I know that all too well.
Sarahna: Ya. And this can be, and I tell people, I don’t, I don’t say it to scare you, but like I have to use the examples. What happens if you get physically injured? What happens if you get mentally injured? What happens if somebody else who’s not you, but you have to stop your life to help that person needs you? What happens if you just freaking need a break?
You have to be like, look, I’m out, I’m gone. Off the grid and I’m gone. But your business can’t stop and you don’t want it to stop. Your business is you. It’s an extension of you. It’s your passion. It’s your life, part of your life, I mean. But you need, you can design a business that can just wake up tomorrow and be like, oh, I gotta go. And it’s for one day, three days, three weeks.
How do we work through that for your business? It may not be perfect. It’s not a little switch and it, you know, you switch over, but there’s ways for you to set it up so that that can happen. And you can take that weight off your shoulders, ‘cause I’ve been there. And I know a lot of us feel that way. If I stop – dun dun DUN – like, everything stops and clients aren’t, the clients are gonna be mad. I’m gonna lose money. And so I can’t. And I’ve lived in that, that feeling of can’t stop. That feeling drove me to work through the night and not sleep and be doing things and doing things and doing things. And telling my kids just now, just now, I need to finish this.
And of course, and you know this well, all that – your body will, your body will shut you down eventually. Some way or the other it’ll find a way to do it. It’ll start off kind of gentle and subtle first. So, you know, like your tummy will hurt, your skin will start doing odd things. And then it’s like, oh, you’re not listening. Okay, cool. We’ll wrap this up.
Sandra: Right! I saw something on Instagram that was like, take time off before your body takes time off for you. And it’s so, so true!
Sarahna: Because your body is so gangster about it too. It’s not like, oh, you wanna do that? Okay, cool. I’m gonna shut you down for three months. Bye!
Sandra: Yeah, exactly!
Sarahna: You could have just nudged me a little more! Thank you! Nope. We’re going down.
Sandra: No, it’s not messing around!
Sarahna: So that is my mission. That’s my vision. That’s my purpose. To help other people create the types of businesses and dream businesses that lets them earn income, share their gift with the world, and do it in a way that doesn’t overwhelm them. That gives them space. That gives them time.
And especially within the wedding industry, I have looked at so many vendors who have to do administrative work, and client servicing work and they’re glancing over at their actual gift, which is photography or florals or cake. And they’re squeezing how much time they’re getting to just do that. And you start to build up this resentment for one thing or the other or all of it.
So you start being annoyed of client leads and your brain is like, how could you, how dare you do that? But I understand where that comes from because I experience it every so often. The client work, which is paying you, is taking you away from the thing you wanna do. And now you’re mad at the client work and you’re missing the thing you wanna do. And you’re like, I’m so angry. I have to do work!
Then, then there’s the other voice that’s like, (gasp) don’t talk about the source of income. Shh. Do everything to service, the source of income. Like what do you, what are you even saying here?
And you, you, you do it and you’re pouting and you’re typing that proposal and you’re like angry because all you wanna do is go outside and shoot or go focus. Because then you feel like your, your little time that you have to do those things gets shorter and shorter and shorter because you’re in your inbox. And because you’re sending through agreements and you’re doing design proposals and you’re like, ugh, and it starts to just weigh on you. Right. And not everybody out the gate can hire a team. And in fact, not everybody’s ready to hire a team. And I see like, if you see people hire, cuz that’s what you’re hearing, just hire help. And you’re absolutely not prepared to hire help. And then it goes badly and then you get a little scar and you have some trauma from it. And you’re like, I don’t need help. I don’t want help. And you go back into octopus mode of doing everything and it just, it’s a perpetuating cycle.
And I’m a person that took a while to hire help because of past traumas with employees and stuff in another business. And there was no way I could have done it before I was ready. That’s also a thing I like to teach with my clients and that word intuitive. That’s what it means. It’s got to work for you in a genuine way, right? Not what you’re hearing, not what you’re seeing on social media, and not what you’re being mentored and coached to do.
You have to sit down quietly and dig deep and figure out, like, what works for you. There are a couple of people who a team will never work. It just won’t. That doesn’t mean they have to do everything themselves. That means we look at outsourcing certain things to a provider.
So it’s not a team member that you have to manage. It’s another high-level service provider, a colleague on your, on your kind of plain, that handles your editing, your accounting, because that’s, that’s their zone of genius, not yours, saving your time. But you don’t have to build a team. You don’t have to be the boss lady or whatever, of everything, but you need to pick and choose what’ll work for you.
So that’s what that word intuitive means when I’m using it. Figuring out what matches your organization style, your way of existing, and kind of fills you up with what you need. ‘Cause people need different things. Um, some people need to have a lot of company around them and life and mg and some people don’t like, they need solitude, they need calm. And they need quiet so you gotta figure it out.
Cause again, I feel like we kind of listen to advice and we go, oh, apparently I need a team. And we run out and we hire a team and then we’re like, not ready to lead. Don’t like interacting. It’s not working. The person was a poor, not aligned choice and it just kind of spiraled, or sometimes it’s magic and this person now Takes things off of your shoulders, on your plates, and you’re over here, magically writing a book haha and, and, you know, your team is handling that over there. So it’s really about digging deep and figuring out what do you need to get to that dream business? Because we all have the dream. Sometimes it’s fuzzy, but we already really have that dream in our heart of what we like our, what we like our business to look like, how we like it to feel.
I dunno about you, but Fridays off is a thing in my world. Like, that’s my job.
Sandra: I love that. And I do love a good Friday – as I’m heading into a Friday wedding tomorrow, but I do love a good Friday off. I try to keep them low-key if I have wedding on a Saturday.
Sarahna: Exactly. I love Fridays off, the objectives of Fridays off. How many Fridays have I taken off? Not many, but not in that resentful way. In the way of like, you know what, it makes more sense to do that on Friday. We’ll do it. But then I’ll take another day off. I went, I had to get up to that permission. Um, fantastic book Finish by Jon Acuff helped me get over that sort of, like you said, Friday, you have not taken Fridays, shut this whole project down. That’s it. We failed. Move on with your life.
Sandra: I’m definitely gonna have to check that out.
Sarahna: Please. It, it was permission ‘cause I’m that way. I’m a bit like focused on certain things. So like I’ve gotta start a new thing on the first of the month or on a Monday or like picking up and starting something on a Wednesday. Uhuh. No, no worse yet. Like, uh, I have a thing with like numbers. Like it’s gotta be an even number. Or a zero haha like, so if you like, send me something and you’re like, I’d had this discussion. If the volume is on like 23. Oh no, no haha gotta go two or zero or 25, 25 will work.
Sandra: I used to drive my husband crazy, ’cause I’d go to the microwave and I’d put something in. Like if it had to be a minute, I would put it in for like 57 seconds. And he’s like, like why? And I’m like, I just felt like doing something different. I don’t know! Haha
Sarahna: haha I would have to train to be in your presence. I’d have to be like, (inhales deeply) it’s okay!
Sandra: Deep breaths!
Sarahna: She’s allowed to exist at fifty-seven seconds. Oh my forehead!
Sandra: That’s so funny. I love that.
Sarahna: So it, so, you know, things like that, like, okay. I did not take this Friday off. Cool. Let’s not abandon the whole project. Let’s look at next week. K, you know what? Wednesday apparently is a good day. We’re off, we’re doing something else. Right? Um, but yes, this is, this is where I live. This is where I exist – sitting with a client and figuring out what’s actually going to work and how do we get that done? So that’s my little spiel about all that.
Sandra: I love that. And I think in a time where, especially with platforms like Instagram and TikTok, there’s never been so many, you should be’s coming our way. Like everybody is telling us we should be doing X, Y, and Z. And I learned after trial and error of so many things, I was like, I can’t organize my work week. It doesn’t work for me. I’ve tried every system that everybody says I should be using and nothing works. But when I took the time to just, like, Stop trying to do what everybody else said and think about what I needed and what was gonna work best for my energy levels, for my health, for everything like that, and just put together my own schedule… A lot of people look at me like I’m crazy when I tell them how it’s built. Like, I edit on Wednesdays and that’s it. If I feel like it a different time of the week, I will. But other than that, I’m editing on Wednesdays. And I am, I have better turnaround times with my photos now than I ever have in almost 10 years in business with only editing one day a week, as opposed to editing every day. and then getting to a point where like, I’m so sick of editing that it’s the last thing that I wanna do, and I’m gonna be over here watching the same thing on Netflix for the hundredth time because I just don’t wanna edit.
Sarahna: That is perfection. So I, I had, I was working with a mindset coach who I adored, and one day she came up with the term she’s like, you need Flexible structure. Now we live in an era where we make stuff up haha words up, life up, jobs up, whatever, but it was one of those epiphanies to me.
Sandra: Yeah. I love that!
Sarahna: Flexible structure because that was where my core existed. So I’m one of those people. I’m an enneagram two with a wing three. If you’ve not done an enneagram test, it means that first and foremost, I’m a helper – enneagram two is helper. With anything. without instance. Like I, it’s almost, I have, I almost have little control over it. Like I would be holding five bags. And I would see a lady at the grocery who needs help with her groceries. And I’d be like, do you need help? And she’s like, you would say, and then I’d be like, hold on. I could manage. Hold on, gimme your one bag on this finger.
Sandra: I’m the opposite. I’m a three wing two.
Sarahna: Oh. And then I have that wing three thing, which is like, oh yeah, I’m gonna get shit done.
Sandra: Ya, exactly. I’m get shit done with a little bit of the helper where you’re the helper with like a side of get shit done.
Sarahna: Get shit done, get shit done. And nobody messes with me. Like nothing, nothing scares me in that realm. I’m that person that’s like, oh, we have never, you, I need help editing video. And I’m like, uh, this can’t be hard. Let’s stop. Let’s figure this out. Let’s Google some stuff. Let’s go to YouTube. Let’s, let’s read a book. What are we doing here? What are we doing here? I, you, you, we need this done. It’s done. Right.
Um, but. In that same vein, like, I love energy. I am recharged by energy. So all my little life I was being trained to focus on one thing. do one thing at a time and do this. And you can’t do the other thing until you finish this one thing. And I got it done, but something felt hard about it. Right. And I always had this guilt. It was like, I really wanna read three books, but I’m not allowed to read the three books. And I started reading the three books and now I feel weird.
And this goes on and on until I, and then, so I would have all these beautiful ideas. I wanna do all these different things and I was then being told, you know, you’re gonna get burnt out if you don’t do one thing at a time and let’s slow it all down. I reluctantly complied ’cause that was the best way to do things, until I reached to this beautiful mindset coach who was like, uh, no, because she looked at me and understood me, and was like, that’s how your batteries recharge. And it’s not flaky. It’s not jumping from, flitting from, thing to thing. It’s not a distraction. It’s not all those negative words that you’ve been told. It’s simply because you need this sort of flexible structure. Because at different times, certain – your passion and your gifts kind of rev up on one area and then another.
So again, I was like, you, I am a queen at creating a schedule down to like day, minutes and six o’clock and then it’s six 30 and I’m doing this. And I would do it for a couple days, maybe a week, and then something would go wrong and I would blame myself for not being disciplined and not be in all these other big words.
Sandra: Yes, I’ve been there.
Sarahna: Not being organized, ‘cause Lord helped me. I have built maybe three brands with the word organized in it. simply organized weddings, simply organized homes. When I was, I am, a professional organized as well, cuz I love it. Simply organized solutions, which is my business arm. And there was so much guilt around that.
But the reality was that this week my brain needs me to write down on a notepad every minute of what’s going to happen tomorrow, in order for me to follow it. next week, my brain needs to lose the goddamn notepad. I don’t even know where it is right now. and wake up and be like, cool. So I have one thing today. Yeah, that’s good. All right, cool. And move on.
And until I settled into that and realized that all of it is disciplined, all of it is organized because I don’t, I don’t generally drop balls even when I’m in my zone of like I have not opened my, my planner. I – because I’ve built systems that protect me in all-the-things.
So we talk about that, where I have a planner, I love paper. I adore paper. I have notebooks, pens, everything about that, tactile sensory sort of feeling of writing things. I love it. My brain needs it, cuz it’s like casting a spell for me. Like if I write this down, it is written into existence, right?
Sandra: Yeah. It’s so true.
Sarahna: I also love Asana. I love Asana because it’s this beautiful myriad of little blocks of tidbits of information that I can drop and drag and click and the celebration shoots across my, my screen, those little touches make – they’re, they’re, they’re designed for people like me, but I then have calendars, Google and people are like, that’s redundant. How many things do you have? And I said, those things are what keep me moving and flexible within my structure. So if, if this is a week that I have not opened my custom-designed planner – I have a lady that custom designs it for me. If I don’t open that planner this week, my watch will tell me that I have an interview with Sandra and I’ll be like, oh shit, hold on. Got it! With it! There are weeks when everything tells me. And then there’s weeks where it’s one thing that says by the week you have X. So I build systems like that. We talk about, there’s not a one, there’s not a one fit for everyone. And even in that person, you have days, like you’ve got days when you’re not feeling great and everything has to change. Like we’re not editing this week. I’m not sitting down here in pain because Wednesdays it’s my editing day.
Sandra: Exactly.
Sarahna: And you, so you’ve gotta have these modes where cool. I went through a phase where I was like, I gotta be in bed by nine. I have to be in bed by nine. The sleep, my sleep health is. Not good. Let’s fix this. And then there’s other nights where I’m like, it’s actually advantageous for me to stay up, pump hard, get this done so I can get some freedom tomorrow to go to the park with my kids all day, but I don’t have to do that every week. And that’s not how I work now. But it’s okay if I hit a one night where it’s really, really late and I get stuff done and it’s not the lack of discipline and it’s not breaching protocols and not following my systems. It’s now the flexible structure that I need to give me the life that I really want. Which is freedom and joy and fun. And sometimes it’s quiet and easy. And then other times it is intense. And I am doing four back-to-back clients in the day while getting snacks for my kids every 30 minutes. So.
And that’s what I like people to understand about businesses and systems. They’re organic, they’re living and breathing. They’re not these boring, strict confines that you kind of, those words sort of illicit. When you say systems and processes, you feel there’s a manual somewhere and you can’t do it differently and you can’t be creative.
And I feel a lot of creative people think that that a system is going to,,, automation and systems and processes are going to make my existence robotic and confined and boring and cookie cutter. Like when people tell me like, no, I don’t like to use email templates. I like, you know, I’m like, you don’t even know that my email is an email template.
Sandra: Right? Exactly!
Sarahna: I was like, it’s beautifully written. It’s written as hug. That I changed the name out, then I changed some tweaks and other stuff, so, okay. Hi Sandra. It was great to talk to you yesterday. Hi Jeanine. It was great to talk to you last week. All of the hugging and the warmth and the happiness is in that same email. And I go through it each time, but again, it does not take me 10 minutes to type out a whole email. It takes me two minutes to edit an existing, beautifully written email.
And today I don’t feel for that graphic so I can switch out that graphic. It took me three minutes.
Sandra: Yeah, exactly. Right. All those little tricks can make such a difference
Sarahna: Such a difference! There’s ways. And I’m – I tell you what, you infuse your personality, you infuse your brown voice. You infuse the warmth that you want this individual to feel and to receive.
But – I don’t sit next to the lady who got the same email from me. This, this, we get locked in these things that there’s somehow like a point of comparison that you’re like, (gasp) did you get the same email as Lisa? And also I’m like, come on! You, you really think the emails you get from companies are individually written. You are aware that 250,000 people got this email today. you are not mad at them. You are not mad at these mailing lists that you’re on and be like, how dare you not customize. And there are some that I’ve received where the customization field didn’t work so you see the coding.
But you’re not mad! you’re – you don’t sit there expecting this from people, but we put that pressure on ourselves because we think this is what’s gonna get somebody through the door, right? Not feeling like our brides, our couples, or grooms, all these people that we deal with. Yes. This is their specialty. And they want you to hold their hand and they’ve invested resources to get that service back. Great. But these are not scary boogie people who are there to be like, mm-hmm that email seems a bit templated. No, no. Do it again. it’s like –
Sandra: Oh my gosh. Could you imagine?!
Sandra: So when it comes to photographers who are just starting out in their businesses, how important do you think it is to get started with intuitive systems and setting those boundaries right away? Because I think a lot of the time when the conversation does come up, it’s people who have been in the industry for a little while who have burned themselves out, who have seen the other side, and who are now coming back to fix these things. And I do think that it requires a little bit more time when you’re first starting a business than it does when you have been in your industry for 20 years. But I’ve always wondered, as someone who did start it with the hustle culture, I love just kind of like talking about if you think it’s possible to set those boundaries right away, Um, or if you think that there’s room for a little bit of hustle culture in there and what that kind of looks like from your end
Sarahna: You know what, that’s a, it’s actually a really fantastic question. And I vacillate between two schools of thought. The sort of experience that I’ve gained, that I know you’ve gained, from going through, like going down a particular path – I don’t, I don’t genuinely think I could have come out of it having not taken that path. I came back from it, but I learned a lot about myself.
But then the other school of thought there is, this is sort of the cycle of life. And as a parent, I get this. I’m not here to make sure my kids do make mistakes, but I’m here to assist with a couple of the lessons so they don’t have to experience every single lesson. So that’s their little foot up. Right. Um, if, if we’re almost thinking of the analogy of being in a university.
So basically – okay. You can come into your first year having taken certain courses in high school, so you then don’t have to take. Biology 101 – you’re, you’re past that. Right? Um, you can prepare yourself for certain things.
And, and again, similarly with a business, this is why mentors are great. This is why education and just reading is in fact, fantastic. You can learn from us. You’re gonna go through your own trials and your own stuff, but you don’t have to experience everything from scratch.
So, if you are a brand new business owner and you have the resources and again, each gen each, each year more resources get added. I started my business back in February of 2020. I was in business before that. So I’ve gone through that realm of – before there was this easy access to a lot of information and beautiful books, And now where it’s just at hand and there’s these beautiful conferences, nice different things.
Use all of those as stepping stones. you don’t have to do every single thing. Right? So I think setting up businesses, setting up systems and boundaries from the beginning, now that you have access to information that can teach you the why and the how about these things is the best course of action.
However, this is coming back to the intuitive parts. when we design systems and businesses, and we are doing sort of like a piecing together based on other people, and based on advice versus based on what we personally need right now, that’s when the whole thing is unstable and it’s probably not gonna work.
So you’ll see somebody say, um, you know, charge what your worth and all these different things. Yes And no. So you’re new in this game. And especially for photographers, this works. You’re new in the game, and there’s a delicate balance between well, I’m new, So I’m gonna charge thousands less than the rest of the industry so I can grab work. Right.
You and I know that when you have that bottom out in an industry, it’s that spread is a problem, right? But at the same time, you have to then understand the respect of, I am now starting to shoot. I cannot come in matched to Sandra. It just can’t work. Right? Because there is a hierarchy. there is value with, I’ve been shooting weddings for forever, and you and I know, being able to take beautiful images and being able to navigate through a wedding day – two vastly different skill sets. Right.
Sandra: So true.
Sarahna: So, you know, that’s – when I do a timeline, my, and when I was a wedding planner, my timeline was based on photography, on your timeline. So I had to anchor when they, when we lost light, we had to – so this is the cutoff point. Everything has to happen before we lose light In terms of portraits. I have to, you have to understand the dynamics of a bride and groom who start like shutting down mid-portraits. And then your, the people who are paying you go, we’re done. We’re tired. We don’t wanna do it anymore. I have been the wedding planner who was like, excuse me, stand there and start smiling. But Sarahna, we’re done! I do not want to hear your words! Now, it seems mean, but I know the backside of that. You’re tired now. But later when you’re looking through your 300 images and you’re like, why don’t I have 600 images? It’s like, well, you stopped shooting haha and now you’re sad. Okay. We can’t recreate the day. We can’t go back out. so suffer through it!
Sandra: So true.
Sarahna: Respectfully, because you’re gonna want it. So to recap, new business owners, I definitely want you to start off on the right foot, with a beautiful foundation, because it sets you up for success, but I need you to really dig into where you are on the journey.
And, but there’s also some common things – at all times, what your systems are there to do is to make life easier for you and to make life easier for your client. And to also the, the bonus is that those systems become part of your marketing, right? There is a difference between, and I’ve definitely experienced it. I’ve gotten jobs as a wedding planner, mainly because I responded well and time in a timely manner.
Sandra: Yeah. I hear that all the time in photography as well.
Sarahna: And also what the response was, what the response was. Again, I was not there waiting. I was never that person, but, because I had a very simple system in place and systems are this simple: I had a nice pre-written, um, message that was on my phone that I could copy and paste into anything and anywhere. So if you sent me a DM on Instagram, I could just go boop-boop, there. If you sent me an email, it was There. There was a way for me, I checked certain messages at a certain time. It’s not me being glued to something 24 hours. But in that message, it hit certain points. I once had a bride told me “you were the first person that said, congratulations on being engaged.”
I did it because I just, it was natural for me in a conversation. And that’s how I write. I write as if I’m talking. But I didn’t, until that day, realize how impactful it was. So now it’s a part of my thing. Like if you are coming to me and you’re engaged, this is joyful time. You’re excited. First thing, even if I’m telling you I’m booked, congratulations. There’s that, that, that little moment of respect and humanity, because again, that’s what we lose. We think, because everything’s digital, it doesn’t have to be human. Absolutely not. Right? But because that message was always sweet and personal and real. “Hey, you’re excited. I get it! This is what’s gonna happen next. I will -”
And this is also not to give information. This was literally to be like, I’m gonna check you back in two days haha But again, the difference between silence and no response and somebody being like, “oh my God, so excited. Congrats! Can you give me a day or two to get back to you with X, Y, Z?” That made a difference.
So these are the little systems that I, I want everybody to put in from the get-go. You are not here to be on call. I had to explain to my own daughter who’s eight. Who says, when I grew up, I’m gonna answer every email, like immediately. And I said, um, and I asked her like, why? “Cause I don’t like waiting for responses, so I don’t want to do that to anybody.”
I said, okay. And we had a long discussion for my poor eight-year-old about like two o’clock in the morning, two in the afternoon. Like you, you can’t be on call all the time. Most of our jobs aren’t emergencies, unless you are in an ER, where time is critical, everybody can wait. Every single person can wait.
And the more we practice it, and the more we train people is the more we will all chill out. And I said, and even the ER, doctors and nurses have to work shift because it cannot be sustained to just be responding to people immediately all the time.
**Click here to get Sarahna’s freebie, a Business Systems Audit Workbook!**
Sandra: I’ve had colleagues talk about, um, pulling over to the side of the road because they got a new inquiry email came in while they were driving. And like, if that person can’t wait for you to get to your end destination for a reply… Then it’s like… They’re, they’re not the client for me! That’s for sure. Because like, there, there’s tons of photographers out there. Maybe they’ll find someone who has no boundaries or that is within their boundaries, but for me, like, absolutely not. I remember the days of replying to emails and inquiries at 11 o’clock at night, and I was getting the names wrong and I was missing details. And like, it was just creating more problems. It wasn’t actually doing anything beneficial for me.
Sarahna: It was. And actually now I have a, I did a proposal for a client the other night and it was 11 o’clock and I was done and I was like, no, I cannot send this. I cannot. And I, I scheduled it to go out at eight in the morning because I was like on principle, I’ve got to slow this down. And I was like, she’ll understand, she’ll get it. And I’m like, until you run into the person that doesn’t and that simple act of sending that proposal at 11 sets off… Sets a precedent that is now expected.
Sandra: Exactly.
Sarahna: And you don’t always know that about clients, right? You think they’ll be reasonable and then you’re like, oh, apparently. Okay, cool. So I have a, I now that’s when I made boundaries, like I don’t send things at strange times, even if I have to schedule it to go out at 5:00 AM so it looks like this was in your inbox before you woke up. I would rather take the hit of saying you got this the next morning, rather than just to be like, I did tell her I’d get it back today. It’s also a thing. These are part of your systems. The system is you nah, I don’t tell people you’re gonna get this back today. What I will do is I’ll say ‘I’m gonna work on it and try to get about you today, tomorrow for the latest.’ And I give myself time. And, I mean, these are based on life experiences. Like I’ve had, bobbin’ along your day and something just explodes it and you’re like, well, that was not planned for. Okay. It is about boundaries. It’s about pouring into the, the system and the world of slowing down. A lot of these cultures, that when you have other traumas, you get trapped in, right? Because again, if I’m pulling, pulling over the side of the road and we start to really dig deep on that, we’re probably dealing with some scarcity mindset issues. We’re probably dealing with some people-pleasing issues. This thing of like, what will make me a good business owner is if I am super responsive. What will make you a good business owner is being a good business owner and a service provider. And respectful of people.
Sandra: Yes. I love that so much.
Sarahna: And also demanding that respect because that’s how you respect people. Like you can’t be respectful of other people and then letting… And then taking shit. Being like, sure. You can do that to me, but I won’t do it back to anybody. And I preached about this because I have lived it. I’m living it. This is not because I’m an expert. This is because I am that person haha, who’s like, okay, I’m gonna be great to everyone. And every other people can treat me like crap, but that’s okay! I’m recovering from this. I am learning. There are days I’m super good at it. There are days I am not good at it. And I go (sigh).
Sandra: But those are the days that remind you why you work so hard towards being good at it
Sarahna: and why I, why I’m forever learning and I’m forever training. And it’s also what makes me able to work with people from a place of deep empathy. Like you could come and tell me anything, like the first thing, and women I have observed, we’ve 0 society has this very comfortable talking shit about ourselves, like entering conversations, talking shit about ourselves. And you’re like, why?! Why was that called for?
So I’ve got to tell you, I, I live in Asana. I love Asana. I introduce people to Asana. I don’t think I’ve ever heard a man use the words “I’m not good with tech!”
Sandra: It’s it’s so true!
Sarahna: And I’m like, but you are no, no, no, no, no. I’m like, okay, let’s break this down. Logically, if you are on the zoom call with me, we can tick off ‘good with tech.’
Sandra: Right. My husband has been out of the tech industry for about 15 years now and he still talks about it like it was yesterday.
Sarahna: Good, again, you see these little connections. I have so many to tell me I’m not good with tech. You’re fine. You’re okay.
Sandra: Exactly. You’re using a high-tech thing to run your life in your hands all day. Every day.
Sarahna: I, when I see people who are good at Instagram and TikTok, and then tell me they’re not good with technology I’m like, you are bat-shit crazy.
Sandra: Yeah. It’s so true.
Sarahna: Nothing is more convoluted and illogically designed, illogically designed!! Than social media platforms. Nothing is more illogically designed. It’s not intuitive. It’s not, they by nature of moving shit every five weeks. I’m like, where did they move the button? Where did you move the new button? Oh my gosh haha it’s never like an improvement. It’s always like, why would you put it there?
Sandra: Right. Yeah. Everything goes crazy. It’s never, like, anything to be excited about.
Sarahna: This is it. No. So this is it. People love to be like, oh, I’m not good at running a business. Oh, I’m not this. I’m not that. Yeah. You tell yourself that and you will believe it. Other things made you think that it’s true. Um, but I always think of it in very basic terms. I love basics. Most of my life is run by who, what, where, when, how, like I am literally writing. That’s how I write. I’ve created documents that literally have who, what – I love that basic fundamental principle because it covers everything you ever need to know.
So when you’re building your systems, that’s how I build my systems too. We answer all of those questions. So everything feels simple. Everything feels natural to you, but I work very hard to understand my clients and what is gonna work.
Because if you build systems, if you people say I have this, I’ve done this, I’ve tried this, it doesn’t work. And like, it doesn’t work because it wasn’t designed for you.
Sandra: Exactly.
Sarahna: All the time. Every time. Like I’ve looked at people’s, like I’ve used Asana, it didn’t work for me. I was like, can I see your Asana? And they’re like, yeah, sure. Go ahead. And I’m like, well, because you didn’t build it for you, you built it for somebody else. I don’t know who’s using this version haha but it’s not you. That’s why it didn’t work because Asana is logic. It’s logic on a computer screen. So it’s just that you’ve got to build it to like how your brain works. So my brain works very differently to a lot of other people and I’ve built for people where I’m like this isn’t how I would’ve designed it. But I do know that this is how Sandra’s brain is gonna wake up every morning and read it and receive the information and be able to continuously use a thing. And that’s what you need to dig deep on. And, and whatever it looks like – fine. I’ve had people tell me like, oh no, no, no. I hate paper. I can’t write things down on paper.
I respect you. That’s okay. But I’ve also had people that I’m like, no, you need a paper. Where’s your book. And it’s like, oh, well, if, if I put in Asana, it’ll be fine. I can’t put nothing in Asana alone –
Sandra: Ya, I’m the same!
Sarahna – that I haven’t written down somewhere else. Certain things.
Sandra: Yeah. I just forget about it when it’s only in Asana.
Sarahna: Because my brain isn’t plugged into technology like that, where it’s like I’m guided by the computer. No, I gotta write that. I gotta feel it. I gotta do certain things. So that’s one of my main objectives, especially when you’re new.
It’s beautiful to be new. There’s tons of perks of being new. A lot of it is energy and this beautiful wonder. You gotta hustle because you gotta learn and feel what that feels like in order to kind of figure out what works for you and what doesn’t work for you. Cause there are people out here who need that, that rush of hustling.
And then there are people who it will disturb their whole soul. That feeling. Like, I was in a workshop with. Shanna Skidmore. And she said the words “I do not have Instagram.”
Sandra: Right?! Yes. I was in that with you. It was like mind-blowing.
Sarahna: Boom!
Sandra: And I think she said she got rid of her account in 2017, which was like peak business on Instagram.
Sarahna: It’s like, what is happening with my whole life right now?! There are people who don’t have Instagram!
Sandra: Right!
Sarahna: I have a love, hate relationship with that app.
Sandra: Me too.
Sarahna: Um, and it’s cuz I don’t like being told what to do. Under zero circumstances do I like being told what to do.
Sandra: Um, so to wrap things up, I wanted to ask, if you can think of like one piece of advice or one starting point that would be a key takeaway for anyone wanting to get started in business, or, sorry, not get started in business, get started in business systems, um, whether they are new to the industry or if they’ve been around for a while, if there’s two different starting points that you would recommend, I’d love to hear your thoughts on that.
Sarahna: Okay. Let me think through this. Instinctively, I wanna say your client’s experience, right? Because that’s your money maker. And actually, I, I have, I think I’ve either done a post or something about this. If you start with your client experience, that actually is the heart of all of your business systems, ‘cause it will now branch out to all your other things, even like how you run your accounting based on your client experience. And what I mean, my client experience is go back to some basic-basic questions. Like, how do I want my client to feel at all points? Like if they had to describe working with me. How does that, what does that sound like? What, how does that feel?
And so that client experience, I talk about five different, um, phases – nurturing. This is when they’re checking you out and they’re asking their questions. Onboarding when they’re like, yeah, I need to pay you. Where do I sign? Work in progress. So while you are working, be it before you shoot, when you’re shooting, anything like that. when you’re wedding planning, all these different things. Um, offboarding, like how do you wrap up and release this person? Get your money. Give them back their shit. Be like, cool, bye-bye. But leave them loving you!
And then legacy. So for a lot of people, they’re like, oh, do I really have a legacy phase? You do, and you don’t, if you’re not gonna shoot, like I had a rule, I’m not being your wedding planet twice. Like Uhuh. Unless you’re renewing some vows, don’t call me. I don’t, sorry. But legacy is about – how do I keep my name at the top of that person’s list and in their brain for years to come. That person needs to choose you for their wedding, and literally decades later, when their kid is getting married, be like, I wonder if Sandra still shoots weddings?! haha Let me call her, let me check her out. Right. But if you sit there and you start to build each of those phases, what happens – and I’m talking real simple things – a person can find me how? And you write out ‘well there’s IG’, there’s Hey, there’s wherever. And what, what happens next? Well, they might message me. And what happens next? And you just kinda build a system that covers those few bases. Nice and easy. When you’re working with someone you’re a human and you want them to feel loved. You want to re – you wanna reinforce and reassure them that they made a great choice financially as another person.
What little touches do you send off? And that can be, instead of only doing business emails or here’s your homework, or here’s what I need from you. It’s a person. There can be an email that comes from your wedding photographer that says, “Hey, I’m just checking in on you. You good?” Part of your system. Are you, you good? How you feeling? Doesn’t have to be anything else. It doesn’t have to type out to anything. But imagine somebody saying like ‘my photographer is the sweetest. I got these sweet little emails from her checking in on me.’ That’s where you want people to live, as opposed to like, well, to my photographer, so she asked me photography questions. I send her payments. We good. Sure haha
Sandra: It’s two totally different vibes!
Sarahna: Two totally different vibes! And you know, as a photographer, it’s so intimate. Like people don’t get how intimate photographers are. I am with you for the whole day. I’ve had grooms be like, Ew, photographers gonna be up in my face all day. And then they’re like, I never knew she was there. And you’re like, then that’s what she does. But during that wedding date, you might be there to see and do all the things – that mother-in-law tripping out on you. One of your bridesmaids trying to be the center of the show. Your groom crying, like straight up, breaking down crying. Like so many random things happen in that intimate space.
Sandra: It’s so true.
Sarahna: But then you have to let them go. And that’s the way I think about our job, we are like forever in your family and then there’s Sunday. And then you’re like, peace. What’s your name? Which one were you? And I don’t mean that in a bad way, but that is part of the experience that we provide.
We can’t be best friends with every single human we work with. It feels like that. I, I promise you and you know, this, some of them you’re like, oh my God, like that person – we’re family now. But we can’t be! Right?! But you need that feeling in between. And if you build a system that helps you think through that, and it may not do it for you, and this is the thing, all systems aren’t automated, they aren’t running in the background.
That’s, that’s beautiful. Certain things can do that. Certain things can. But what it does for you, a system eliminates decision making and it’s, it sets your quality. If every client gets treated with a high level of quality, it does not matter if you are whatever part of your cycle. It does not matter if you’re feeling sick. It does not matter if you’re going through a phase where you are. You have no brain capacity. You are so – that system now – you log into your own system and you’re like, what happens next? What do I send this person next? Okay, cool. That’s what I love about systems. If you are down on a day and I will give an example, I had a dear friend, one of my best friends, possibly suddenly, heart attack at 42. Right? And your brain’s in a fog. You’re screwed. So like you’re functional, you could do things. But the last thing I needed my brain to spend any energy on was what happens next with this client? And what email do I send and what do I do this? So I love that I could just mindlessly open up a computer and be like, you get this, you do that. And now I can go back to doing whatever I need to do and focus on.
That’s what saves you. Having the things decided, checked through. That’s the emergency protocol that I want for people. Even if you have to still physically send the email and still do the things manually, the decision-making has now been removed from you. And you can trust that it sounds good. There’s no typos. There’s no, I forgot half the information. Like you, if you have a wedding Friday and something happens today and you cannot cancel on the person’s wedding. So you’ve got to muster up the strength to do said wedding. If you’ve got a system that has a checklist of what the hell you pack in your bag, you’re good. ‘Cause your brain can’t think through, I need these lenses. I need this. I need that. I need to make sure I pack so and so. I need to do this. So you wouldn’t have to be like, what do I need? What do I need? What do I need? If you’ve got a set checklist night before that goes out to that client that says here’s what. This is the venue. This is the, this that you don’t have to now think of, What do I normally do? That’s where I want you to live, in that capacity. So if you are new to this business, put it in from the beginning so that you’re not playing this constant catch-up.
Sandra: Yeah, exactly.
Sarahna: Because that, that catch-up part… A lot of the times and you, and I can say this, when we eventually put shit in place – was something went wrong!
Sandra: Ya, for sure. And that, it’s so hard to get caught up in negative head spaces. When you are in that catch-up mode. You start to internalize it all and blame yourself for things. And I can’t tell you the relief that I’ve felt on days when I haven’t been feeling well, I’ve had to get outta the office. And at some point something. I’ll think of something, an email that was supposed to go out or something like that. And I still, I kind of like get this little bit of panic and I rush to my computer and then I’m like, oh wait, it was already done, because my system was built out and that was taken care of days ago. And I didn’t really even have to think about it. And then I can just kind of like go back to resting and recovering so that I can come back faster instead of having to take more time out because I’m not giving myself the time that I need.
Sarahna: Completely. And at the beginning, what it does for you is it also sets you up to look fantastic. If you’re a new photographer and you’re sending out proper ass emails, you’re a boss. And it sets that too. The exact thing you’re trying to scream at the world. I’m good. Give me a chance, I’m good at this. Your systems help you be like, oh, this girl’s okay.
Sandra: Yeah. It’s not just about what you’re doing with your camera.
Sarahna: Yeah. And again, the world has, we have to do a little filter for people now. Like it is unfortunate, but it is a reality. This feeling of, I was just home and came up with an idea and now I’m a business owner. That’s how a lot of businesses start, granted, but there are a ton of people who are doing that, who can’t do it, who aren’t good at doing it, but there’s no distinction at the beginning of the race, right?
This is how you distinguish yourself. The difference in a well-written email – and well-written does not mean elaborate and long and dramatic. Put together, efficient, thoughtful email versus here – here’s your proposal. See proposal. Oh my God. And again, people are like, oh, people don’t make decisions on that. You don’t, you’re not even aware that you make decisions based on that. My husband and I have this fight all the time, ‘cause he’s like, I’m a landscaper. Just say, here’s your proposal. I’m done. I’m like, yes. And that works. But imagine the extra impact of, and imagine if somebody else sent a proposal, and their shit had a little more polish on it.
Sandra: Mm-hmm.
Sarahna: They could get that job above you simply because the communication and how it was received was more impactful. And that’s it. You’re new to business. You’ve gotta make a little splash in the water. The way to do that is by creating impact. It’s by showing a couple things: a well-designed system says communicates to a client, “I am organized. I am thoughtful. I’m focused on my business. I also want to do it well. I have that passion behind it. I have that desire.” That helps me translate to this person will work hard to take care of me. This person will work hard to honor the investment I’ve made in them. I can trust this person. That’s what systems do on the client-facing side.
On your side, it gives you freedom. It gives you time. It lets you breathe. It lets you have a life without having to pull over the side of the road to answer an inquiry from your phone. Right. So I definitely think if you’re near in the business, focus on your systems. Focus, focus, focus. Focus on the system that you need, then not your future “I’m 10 years in this game and I’m the hottest photographer out here” system. No, no, no. You will grow. And your systems change constantly. My systems change constantly, right? Because I want them to do different things at different times in my life.
Um, but you’ve gotta start with building a nice foundation. And if you’ve gotta pick a system to, to go into, start with your client experience, just move through. I am a person – and get a friend to help you. If I inquired and if I needed to sign the documents and I needed to do this. And again, we all think these are big fancy things that I need to spend a ton of money on that to me is a fallacy.
If you’re new and you’re only processing a certain small amount of proposals and clients, a CRM may not be for you, right? Because you’re still in the volume of being able to pull up that proposal and email it in a beautiful email and respond to the person as opposed to being like “click through to here and that’ll send you the auto brochure” – and that again, you are nurturing in this phase. You – ‘cause you need your personality to come through. If your volumes are high, then get a damn CRM because individual personal touch ain’t helping you when you can’t get through 40 inquiries per day. Right. Just not. Like then let it go out automatically and be okay with that. ‘Cause again, the actual decision-making comes in, different things. People think, oh, if you just get an automated brochure, I’m probably shopping six of ya’ll. Getting the information and making the decision is fine. If you know getting them to a call stage is where you’re at, get the other things quickly, get them on a call, get them on a call. Don’t blackmail them into a call! I cannot stand with people blackmail me into calls.
Sandra: Right?! I know.
Sarahna: It’s like you get nothing until you speak to me, and like, but I can fast-track this if I know you’re not the right fit for me. I’m smart. I can assess this. It’s not price shopping all the time, but sometimes I need to assess the situation. I don’t need to call you to assess the situation. Right.
So it’s to think through those things and keep them simple. We think things need to be elaborated and fancy. Most times just need to be connected and human. So all the bells and whistles are big CRMs, are big this, are schedulers, and all these things. They are lovely. But if they’re not used properly, they then create issues. If I have to sign up 14 different things, just to find out if you’re available for my date, I’m out. I’m just gone. Too much stuff! You think it’s fancy, but it’s like, no, just. You available for my date? Sweet. Let’s talk now, you know. But that’s it, that’s my advice.
Sandra: Um, I love that. That is amazing. I think that’s so helpful regardless of if you’re just starting out or if you are just looking to get more organized and get some more freedom back in your business. So thank you so much for that.
Sarahna: You’re so welcome.
Sandra: Um, before we end things off, I wanted to just ask where everybody can find you on social media so I can make sure they go give you a follow.
Sarahna: Sure, absolutely. No problem. So, um, I’m gonna sound like I, you, you can find me on IG. That’s where I hang out. It is really where I am though. So on Instagram, I’m actually Simply Organized by Sarahna – S-A-R-A-H-N-A. Um, and then you can always check out my website. That’s simplyorganizedsolutions.net. So there’s two different things, but I had to get over that. Domains be damned.
Sandra: Been there. I totally get it.
Sarahna: I’m okay with it. My name’s Sarahna and my company has solutions in it. It’ll be okay. Your brain can do it.
Sandra: And next step will be doing 57 seconds on the microphone, or, microphone. Microwave.
Sarahna: Yeah. Yes. Slow slowly easy. But, um –
Sandra: Baby steps!
Sarahna: If you go to my website, I’ve got a beautiful freebie section that you can actually, and I really recommend this – I’ve got, um, a business audit workbook, so you can do a little audit on your own systems to figure out where you need your attention. ‘Cause that’s a big thing. People are like, uh, it’s all I need help with all. And where the hell do I start? And that sounds long and ex exhausting. So I’m not gonna start. It’s okay.
**Click here to get Sarahna’s freebie, a Business Systems Audit Workbook!**
Go do the quick audit. It’s a nice little PDF. It basically puts your shit in little quadrants of what you like and you’re good at. Which you don’t like, and which you’re not good at. And the two other versions in between there, and you kind of rank things and you figure out cool. My marketing actually needs the most help, not my client experience. So let me start there and get to client experience later.
But that is a great freebie. Um, that’s anybody can, and I think it’s actually in my bio for my Instagram as well. You can just click and go directly to that.
Sandra: Perfect. I’ll make sure I include a link in the show notes for the episode as well. So that way everybody can easily go and find it.
Sarahna: Thank you. I do appreciate that, but yeah, it’s a really good resource to kind of figure out where the hell to start and put things in perspective, ‘cause there’s stuff that we think is a problem. Like Ill help people who’ll be like, oh my, my accounting, my accounting. It’s like, that’s actually lower down. You’ve just realized that it’s the like general admin of your business and the admin of your business is important. Especially if you have plans for team members and other humans, um, you gotta get that in check and laid it out somewhere. And that’s, I, that’s my focus, lay it out somewhere so you can see it and then other people can see it.
And then you kind of know what your business looks like. Cause a lot of people don’t know, they, ‘cause they’re busy working in the business. They don’t really have a macro view of how they’ve set up their business and how it runs and how to access stuff. And again, in my, in my beautiful preaching about emergency and planning for emergencies, first thing you do is lay out your whole business so you can see what it all looks like and where you need to tweak, where you need help and how somebody else could ever help you and step in and help you. Like that’s the first step. Like they’ve gotta learn what it is. It’s like walking into a shop, and you look around. There’s a counter with a cash register. These are some shelves. Product goes here. Storeroom is there. This is where the cash is. This is where the bill book is, you know, just things like, and I’m like that.I think about everything in real-life terms. And then I build and create things based on like, okay, how would this feel in real life? How would this sound in real life? How would this work in real life? Um, so yeah, go check on that freebie. It’ll help you out a lot.
Sandra: Yes, absolutely. Definitely. Make sure you go and grab a copy. Like I said, I’ll make sure the link is in the show notes and Sarahna will also have it on her website as well.
Well, thank you so much again for joining! This interview was absolutely amazing. I am so, so excited to get this out there so everybody can listen to it. And I look forward to many more connections with you.
Sarahna: Of course, you’re my girl. So I’m happy to come back and chat and we clearly can chat about so many things.
Sandra: Right. I love it.
(Interview Ends)
Ohmygosh. That interview was so, so good! I hope you loved listening as much as I did. Like I mentioned at the end of that interview, I’ve included the link to Sarahna’s freebie in the show notes for today’s episode, so head over to my website – simplysandrayvonne.ca/keepingitcandid – to grab your copy of the Business Systems Audit workbook and don’t forget to check out everything else Sarahna has available there as well.
**Click here to get Sarahna’s freebie, a Business Systems Audit Workbook!**
On the next episode of Keeping It Candid, I’m chatting with my friend Cindy from Harborview Studios. She joined me to talk about why we shouldn’t be “giving 110%” to our clients as business owners, so make sure you check back in two weeks for that!
(Outro Music)
Thanks so much for listening to Keeping It Candid: Wedding Photography Unfiltered with Sandra Henderson! You can find full show notes from today’s episode at simplysandrayvonne.ca/keepingitcandid. In the meantime – let’s connect! You can find me on Instagram @simplysandrayvonne, and on Facebook in the Wedding Photography Unfiltered community! If you’re loving this podcast, I’d be so honoured if you’d go ahead and hit that subscribe button and leave me a review!
Until next time!
About Sarahna
Sarahna Fernandes was a Wedding Planner for 12 years before she launched Simply Organized Solutions – a company dedicated to getting wedding pros and other creative entrepreneurs their time back Sarahna pivoted into her current role as a Business Systems Architect because she recognized a great opportunity to serve the industry she had fallen in love with in an even more impactful way. To date, she has had the amazing opportunity to work with entrepreneurs from several fields other than the wedding industry, and she has been successfully helping entrepreneurs create better client experiences AND work experiences by improving their systems & processes. She loves eclairs, reading, and spending time enjoying her family and friends!
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